Top Prospect #27: Lee Gwaltney [Archive]

PhilaVa

09-25-2004, 09:50 PM

From Phillies.com..

MONTREAL -- Ryan Howard can't catch a break. After becoming the first player in two decades to amass 46 homers in one minor league campaign, who does he have to play behind in his first stint in the Majors? All-Star Jim Thome, author of 42 Major League homers this season.

Thome and Howard are both left-handed power hitters who have always played first base. So as long as Thome is well enough to play, Howard will back him up.

American League teams have the benefit of the DH in this type of situation, so if both Thome and Howard are in the organization's long-term plans, that will mean Howard will have to learn a new position.

"I've never seen him play, so you have to explore all avenues with a kid like this," manager Larry Bowa said. "Let's find out if he can or can't rather than say he can't without even trying it. He's got good tools, you want to explore every possibility."

Bowa said Howard will not patrol the outfield at any point this season with the big club, explaining that the organization wants to do it in the Arizona Fall League.

For Howard, who turns 25 in November, it is a case of nothing ventured, nothing gained.

"I haven't officially heard anything yet, it's just something that if they want me to go and try it, I'll try it," he said. "[The AFL] is from early October to the 18th of November, I believe. It could be a long, long 2004 season. It's going to be good to just get out there and start working on new things." So far, Howard has done well off the bench. In his two starts at first he is hitting just .200 (2-for-10), but both of his homers and all three RBIs have been as a pinch-hitter. Overall, Howard is hitting .360 (9-for-25) heading into Saturday's game.

Domino427

09-26-2004, 02:21 PM

Excellent news. I'm very glad to hear this...hopefully this means we can keep him and after next season, get rid of Burrell.

asheylarry

09-26-2004, 02:44 PM

Get rid of Bowa and Burrel's problems are gone as well.

PhilaVa

09-26-2004, 03:21 PM

Burrell isn't going anywhere, no one is going to take his contract on. But Bowa is as good as gone, it would be an horrible mistake not to do so, but I would not be suprised with this management.

Burrell was fine this year, not nearly as bad as next year, so he took some steps forward which is always good, next year will be a great determinant of what he will be like for the rest of his career.

PhilaVa

09-26-2004, 03:24 PM

From Phillies.com...

MONTREAL -- Jim Thome missed his second straight game Sunday because of chest tightness that he has felt since waking up on Saturday morning.

Thome collided with Todd Pratt on a popup on Sept. 16 in Cincinnati. The first baseman was listed as day-to-day and missed the next two games. He had not felt any discomfort in the last week, but decided to visit the Expos' medical staff for an assessment and has scheduled a meeting with team physician Dr. Michael Ciccotti on Monday morning in Philadelphia.

"It's just kind of tight in the chest area," Thome said. "The doc looked at me and said I might still have a little bit of swelling from my collision."

Thome compared the sensation he is feeling to indigestion.

"I just wanted to get it looked at, he checked my heartbeat and everything there is fine," he said. "I've never really had a collision like that, so I just wanted to be more on the precautionary side. Actually, if I'm feeling better tomorrow, then we'll go."

Thome said that there were no X-rays or MRIs performed, but he expects that might be done at his medical exam on Monday. Ryan Howard started at first base in place of Thome for the second straight game.

PhilaVa

09-27-2004, 09:05 PM

From Phillies.com...

PHILADELPHIA -- Had Marlon Byrd carried a notebook around with him season, he would likely have filled several volumes with everything he's learned.

"It's been an incredible learning experience," he said. "The bottom line is, what do you really learn when you're going well? You go bad for six straight months, you have to figure something out."

Little has gone right for Byrd, who entered the season as the team's leadoff hitter after a successful rookie season in 2003. By early June, however, he had surrendered the spot to Jimmy Rollins, and on June 20, he was demoted to Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre.

While not unexpected, it was highly disappointing. That said, it became cathartic for Byrd, who felt like he had lost his way.

"My are better, my swings are better and my at-bats are better," he said. "I've learned so much, as far as my swing, from so many people this year. I got a lot of input, but it was the right input.

"When I went to GG [hitting coach Greg Gross] I was lost, and he's a hitting coach, not a psychiatrist. Mentally I wasn't right. I guess it took me going down, working with Charlie [Manuel], then GG put the finishing touches on everything, saying, 'That's what we're talking about.'"

While the results aren't obvious, he's hitting just .232 since his return and .228 overall, Byrd said his head is screwed on better. He also understands that this winter will be an adventure. The Phillies would like for him to play winter ball, or he could work with Tony Gwynn again this fall near his San Diego home.

Next season, nothing is guaranteed.

"I don't know what next year [holds]," Byrd said. "I have to get ready for anything. Right now, it's up in the air. I could start, but J-Mike [Jason Michaels] has played really well. I could be a bench guy. I have to be ready for whatever it is."

[b]The J-Mike factor: While Byrd has not yet committed to his winter plans, Michaels is heading to Venezuela, where he'll play for a team managed by former Phillies player, and current Tigers third-base coach, Juan Samuel.

Michaels' goal is to get at-bats, but he's also hoping to see time in center field. Like Byrd, he anticipates a challenge next spring.

"I know I can play every day," said Michaels.

The Phillies are willing to find out. While general manager Ed Wade wouldn't rule out a possible trade, he acknowledged that the team is comfortable in its current situation. "It seems like [Michaels has] relaxed a little bit in [his current] role," Wade said. "We always believed that if he had an opportunity to play on an everyday basis, he'd be productive. You can't minimize what he's done for us. He's going to winter ball, and hopefully he'll get a chance to play a lot of center field and become more comfortable and give us a chance to evaluate his role going forward."

PhilaVa

09-27-2004, 09:41 PM

From ESPN.com

NEW YORK -- Exactly 33 years after the Washington Senators (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=was) played their final game, the nation's capital might learn on Thursday that major league baseball plans to return next season.

Several baseball officials said Monday that the most likely day for an announcement that Washington, D.C., has been selected for the future home of the team is Thursday, although there was a slight chance the timetable could be moved up.

After a meeting of the sport's executive council last Thursday, a high-ranking baseball official who spoke on the condition of anonymity said major league baseball would attempt to finalize negotiations with Washington within a week. It would be the first franchise relocation in the major leagues since the expansion Washington Senators became the Texas Rangers (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=tex) after the 1971 season.

The deal to move the Expos to Washington would be subject to government approval of funding for both a $13 million refurbishment of RFK Stadium and a new ballpark costing slightly over $400 million, which would be built along the Anacostia River in the southeast section of the city.

A move also must be approved by three-quarters of major league owners and survive legal challenges by the Expos' former limited partners and possibly by Baltimore owner Peter Angelos, who objects having a team just 40 miles from his.

After an announcement, the process of selling the Expos will start. A group that includes former Rangers partner Fred Malek has been seeking a Washington franchise for five years. In addition, several baseball officials have said in the past week that Stan Kasten, former president of the Atlanta Braves (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=atl), Hawks and Thrashers, might be trying to assemble a group.

Kasten is close to baseball commissioner Bud Selig, which likely would be an advantage during the bidding process.

"I am studying all the situations in all of the sports right now," Kasten said Monday. "I haven't committed to any group, any city or any sport."

The original Washington Senators played 4,610 home games before becoming the Minnesota Twins (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=min) after the 1960 season, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. The expansion Senators played 883 home games before moving to Texas.

In the Senators' last game, on Sept. 30, 1971, they led the New York Yankees 7-5 with two outs in the ninth inning when fans seeking souvenirs went on the RFK Stadium field, which could not be cleared. The Yankees wound up winning the game in a forfeit.

The Rangers retain ownership of the name "Washington Senators," baseball spokesman Carmine Tiso said after consulting with Ethan Orlinsky, a lawyer for Major League Baseball Properties, the sport's licensing division.

Montreal's last home game is scheduled for Wednesday night against Florida. Monday's series opener drew a crowd of 3,923 to Olympic Stadium.

"Now that it looks like it's going to happen, that this is going to be the end, it's a little tough for people to get up and talk about it in the positive way that they should," Expos manager Frank Robinson said. "And I think that's kind of a pity, really, because it deserves that people say more about how they feel about the situation, about the possibility of losing baseball in the Montreal area. ...

"I think there were a lot more good times possibly than bad times. This is where an expansion ballclub grew into one of the best organizations in baseball, at one time, and it's sad the way it has gone over the last few years and the way it is going out, if this is the end."

On a personal note, I'd much rather see the Expos closer to my area, In northern VA, I'm not even sure that's an option anymore...

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 12:50 PM

From ESPN.com

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- The Philadelphia Phillies (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=phi) can start planning their vacations.
Ty Wigginton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6930) hit a two-run homer and Oliver Perez (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6945) pitched 6 2-3 strong innings, helping the Pittsburgh Pirates (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=pit) stop a seven-game road losing streak with a 6-1 victory over Philadelphia on Monday night that eliminated the Phillies from postseason contention.

"Anytime you get X'ed out, it's disappointing," Phillies manager Larry Bowa said. "Now you try to win as many games as you can and finish as high in the standings as possible."
The underachieving Phillies can at most win 87 games, one fewer than San Francisco or San Diego must finish with because they face each other three times. The Phillies (81-75) need one more victory to ensure consecutive winning seasons for the first time since 1982-83. That's little solace for a team picked by many last spring to win the NL East.

"When we left spring training, we had high expectations," slugger Jim Thome (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=4762) said. "We had some injuries. We have to overcome those. There's a lot of good times to come here. We have good players. We have to finish out the season, go home and figure out the adjustments we have to make."

Tike Redman (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6515) and Jack Wilson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6693) each drove in two runs for the Pirates, who have won two straight after losing 10 of 13.

Perez (11-10) allowed one run and five hits, striking out five to win for just the second time in his last six starts.

"He really didn't have his best stuff, but he kept the ball down," Pirates manager Lloyd McClendon said. "He wasn't overpowering as he has been, but he had an exceptional sinker."

Eric Milton (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5944) (14-5) gave up four runs and four hits in six innings, falling to 3-3 with nine no-decisions since the All-Star break, when he was 11-2.

Milton retired the first eight batters before walking Perez. He didn't allow a hit until Wigginton's homer.

Craig Wilson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6642) walked with two outs in the fourth, before Wigginton hit the next pitch into the bullpen in right-center field for his 16th homer.

Craig Wilson also started a two-out rally in the sixth with a double. After Wigginton was intentionally walked, Redman lined a shot off the right-center field fence, scoring Wilson and Wigginton to give the Pirates a 4-0 lead.

The Phillies cut to it 4-1 on David Bell (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5343)'s RBI single in the sixth. But Perez retired Mike Lieberthal (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5270), Jason Michaels (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6696) and Pat Burrell to strand two runners.

"I felt very comfortable out there," Perez said. "I threw a lot of sinkers. I just tried to pitch. I tried to keep the ball down and throw ground balls."

Jack Wilson had a two-out, two-run single off Todd Jones (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5082) in the ninth.

Milton, acquired from Minnesota last December, can become a free agent after this season. Despite a 4.73 ERA, his .737 winning percentage should help him get several attractive offers.

"I was brought here to be the No. 4 pitcher, but the three ahead of me went down," Milton said, referring to injuries to Kevin Millwood (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5848), Randy Wolf (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6248) and Vicente Padilla (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6257). "It just didn't work out."

Game notes
Craig Wilson was hit by a pitch for the major league-leading 30th time, giving the Pirates a club record 93 batters hit this season. Redman and Bobby Hill (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6847) were hit by Jones in the ninth, increasing the total to 95. ... Perez lowered his ERA to 3.08. ... The Pirates are 12-25 since pulling within three games of .500 (58-61) on Aug. 19. ... Pittsburgh is 61-1 when leading after eight innings. ... The Pirates are 17-37 on the road since starting the season 14-8 away from home. ... Thome was out of the lineup, still suffering from discomfort in his chest resulting from a collision on Sept. 15. ... The crowd of 30,268 was the smallest at Citizens Bank park this season. ... Pirates C Jason Kendall (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5562) went 0-for-5, ending his hitting streak at 12 games. ... Lieberthal's hitting streak ended at 14 with an 0-for-4 performance.

manny

09-28-2004, 12:52 PM

good luck next year

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 01:23 PM

Thanks, I hope so, its safe to say we'll be good next year, the question is will a manager change be made or not, I think it's a must if the Phils have any chance of beating the Braves next year. Who is on the contract hook for the braves..furcal?

How many young arms are they gonig to be bringing up.

manny

09-28-2004, 01:28 PM

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 01:39 PM

a new manager is needed for the Phillies, I think Furcal is up for free agency. Ortiz is up I think, along with Wright, Byrd and Thompson. JD Drew is up as well as Franco. DeRosa is arbitration eligible and possibly gone. We have more young starters down there though, the position players are the bigger issue.
I would let Furcal and Ortiz go, looks like Drew might be back since this is the only place he has had a healthy season before...don't know about the other starters, I imagine Jared Wright will want to come back no matter how much he is being paid after what Leo and Bobby turned him into..

manny

09-28-2004, 01:42 PM

Furcal will likely be back, I would really let Ortiz go and good riddance. We'll have to pay for Drew to come back.

manny

09-28-2004, 01:42 PM

Wright may pay attention to what happened to Burkett after he left.

cardsfanboy

09-28-2004, 01:44 PM

manny

09-28-2004, 01:46 PM

many Braves fans have their fingers crossed that the Phillies hold on to Bowa due to the fact that he doesn't get the potential out of a team.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 05:17 PM

many Braves fans have their fingers crossed that the Phillies hold on to Bowa due to the fact that he doesn't get the potential out of a team.
I can see the phils management stabbing us all in the back and bringing him back for another year. But he should be fired, anyone can see that the players just arent' responding, when you have the type of numbers that the Phils do with RISP it's just sad.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 05:18 PM

Wright may pay attention to what happened to Burkett after he left.
I think both Drew and Wright need to think about what happen this year and who is really to credit. Drew's ego may be too big and his agent is a prick.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 05:20 PM

Until Bowa is gone, the Phillies aren't going to win, the only reason I didn't pick the phillies over the Braves this season is because of Bowa, he may do some things right, but he will never ever get the full potential of this team. Talent wise I think only the Cubs have a better overall talented team(pitching, and offense I mean) but neither team will realize their potential with their psycho managers manning the helm.
I agree, going into this year I was willing to give him another chance due to the fact that it was clear the Marlins were not going to be stopped last year and they were the only reason the Phils did not make the playoffs. But I'm seeing the same weak baseball play this year as I did last year, so I'm off the Bowa train, we need a change.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 08:44 PM

An Update on 09/28/04 from Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- Even if Tuesday's game against the Pirates hadn't been postponed by rain, Jim Thome would not have played.

Still bothered by chest pains and shortness of breath as a result of a Sept. 15 collision with catcher Todd Pratt, Thome was set to miss his fourth straight game when the Phillies played the Pirates at Citizens Bank Park. He also missed two games on Sept. 17 and 18, but returned for the next five.

He woke up sore in Montreal on Saturday.

"I probably should have sat a few more days, but we were getting ready to play the Marlins and I wanted to get back," said Thome.

He saw team doctor Michael Ciccotti on Monday, and was diagnosed with a contusion. Thome said the situation was still day-to-day and he would play as soon as he could. Until then, however, manager Larry Bowa will go with Ryan Howard and Chase Utley.

Thome also took the opportunity to engage in a lengthy conversation with Bowa in the manager's office. The first baseman called the meeting "personal" and productive.

"Just chatting," Thome said, with a big smile. "It was good. We're getting ready to wind her down, here."

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 08:46 PM

From Phillies.com...

Madson debate: Starter or reliever next season?

The question has come up often with regard to Ryan Madson, who converted from a successful minor league starter to an extremely effective reliever with the Phillies in 2004. If Bowa has a say, he wouldn't mind keeping Madson in the pen, where he can soak up those all-important middle innings.

Bowa thinks Madson is too valuable as a long reliever, and said he was one of the team's two most valuable pitchers this season, along with Eric Milton.

"We need somebody like Madson down there to bridge the gap between the sixth and the eighth," said Bowa. "That's where we got in all kinds of trouble in April and May when the starting pitching couldn't go deep. This guy has picked us up when we've asked him to."

Next season's starting rotation remains up in the air, with Milton, Kevin Millwood and Cory Lidle pending free agents and Vicente Padilla and Randy Wolf returning from injury. The team is also concerned about Brett Myers, who has regressed somewhat, and rookie Gavin Floyd, who may need more seasoning.

Still, Madson's 1.77 ERA in relief is third best among NL relievers. Though he was groomed as a starter, the 24-year-old's only priority is to remain on the big league roster.

"We don't have a Livan Hernandez that can give you eight innings every time out," said Bowa, discussing the Expos' workhorse ace. Hernandez leads the National League in innings pitched (248) and complete games (9). "Madson is much more valuable to us because of that."

Enyalois

09-28-2004, 08:52 PM

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 09:06 PM

I personally think he should stay in the pen. He is such a great value in there. Also, relating to the bull pen, earlier in the year Wagner saying he'll see the direction the organization is going in after the season to see if he'll use his option to leave(I forget exactly what he said, but this was the gist of it). I feel he didn't accomplish what he was supposed to bring to the team this year so he should come back next year.
Billy has opened his mouth a lot this year...it should be interesting to see what he does but I think you are right he said he'll be back next year. Hopefully he will be able to perform a little bit better.

Madson...If I had my choice I'd like to see him back in the Pen next year, but I also do not think we should have Millwood...or Milton back, so if he has to start, I wouldn't be too upset but I think he would be better for our team out of the Pen.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 09:30 PM

Its Official...man, I really wanted them in Northern VA...but this is just as good in some ways...

From ESPN.com

WASHINGTON -- Major League Baseball will announce Wednesday that Washington will be the new home of the Montreal Expos (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=mon), The Associated Press has learned.

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A city official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Washington has been notified by Major League Baseball of the impending announcement that will return the national pastime to the nation's capital for the first time in 33 years.

The city is planning its own news conference at a downtown location Wednesday afternoon, the official said.

The announcement will come one day before the 33rd anniversary of the Washington Senators' final game. The Senators moved to Texas after the 1971 season, which was also the last time a major league team changed cities.

Baseball has been looking for a new home for the Expos since the financially troubled team was bought by the other 29 major league owners in 2002.

Las Vegas; Norfolk, Va.; Monterrey, Mexico; Portland, Ore.; and Northern Virginia also made bids, but Washington clearly took the lead during negotiations over recent weeks.

Those negotiations have produced a 30-page document that would conditionally award the Expos to Washington, pending approval by the City Council. The document had not yet been signed as of Tuesday night, the city source told the AP.

Final talks have been ongoing since a meeting of the sport's executive council last Thursday. Plans call for a $13 million refurbishment of RFK Stadium and a new ballpark costing slightly over $400 million, which would be built along the Anacostia River in the southeast section of the city.

The move must be approved by three-quarters of major league owners and survive legal challenges by the Expos' former limited partners and possibly by Baltimore owner Peter Angelos, who objects to having a team just 40 miles from the Orioles. Bob DuPuy, baseball's chief operating officer, has been attempting to negotiate a compensation arrangement with Angelos.

The original Washington Senators played 4,610 home games before becoming the [url="http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=min"]Minnesota Twins (http://log.go.com/log?srvc=sz&a=1&drop=0&addata=1331:53574:170067:53574&guid=B5D93C75-F6F3-4DD6-A214-BD1935E84C55&goto=http://h10049.www1.hp.com/music/us/en/shark_tale.html) after the 1960 season, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. The expansion Senators played 883 home games before moving to Texas.

In the Senators' last game, on Sept. 30, 1971, they led the New York Yankees 7-5 with two outs in the ninth inning when fans seeking souvenirs went on the RFK Stadium field, which could not be cleared. The Yankees wound up winning the game in a forfeit.

The Rangers retain ownership of the name "Washington Senators," baseball spokesman Carmine Tiso said after consulting with Ethan Orlinsky, a lawyer for Major League Baseball Properties, the sport's licensing division.

Montreal's last home game is scheduled for Wednesday night against Florida. Monday's series opener drew a crowd of 3,923 to Olympic Stadium.

JRoll

09-28-2004, 10:11 PM

I personally would like to see Mad Dog as closer if Wagner doesnt come back, I think the combination of his changeup and F-Rod's fastball would be deadly in the 8th and 9th. The change in speeds would be enough to drive batters....well batty. (sorry bad pun there)

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 10:20 PM

Well, if he is in the Pen, no matter who our coach is next year, they will more then likely will have Wagner and Worrell, so Madson would be the 7th inning guy.

We will also have F-Rod so our 2005 bullpen already looks unhittable....so Madson in the starting rotation may be more of an option then many of us would like it to be.

Domino427

09-28-2004, 10:35 PM

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 10:39 PM

I'd definately rather see Madson in the pen. Just because you don't mess with a good thing. He's found a groove there. If he struggles next year, then consider letting him start. But for now, there's no way you mess with success.
I think the problem with that is our Pen is really stacked already...the question will be who will be in our starting rotation. Myers, Floyd (hopefully), Wolf, Padilla...and we need a fifth starter...I really dont' want to see Milton back, I'd rather give Lidle a try...

JRoll

09-28-2004, 10:43 PM

well i say we dont resign Wagner, put Madson as closer, dont resign Milton and definitely dont resign Millwood and we throw a shitload of money at Pedro to try to get him to come here.

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 11:34 PM

well i say we dont resign Wagner, put Madson as closer, dont resign Milton and definitely dont resign Millwood and we throw a shitload of money at Pedro to try to get him to come here.
We need to bring Waggs back, give him another try at another good year...I agree though with not bringing back Millwood or Milton.

JRoll

09-28-2004, 11:38 PM

what about the Pedro idea or would you rather go after Pavano or Clement?

PhilaVa

09-28-2004, 11:43 PM

what about the Pedro idea or would you rather go after Pavano or Clement?
LoL..I love the Pedro Idea, but he fits well with the Sox, and I doubt he will not be there next year unless something goes wrong during the post season that totally shocks me...

Pavano would be nice, or Clement, considering either of them wouldn't be too bad, but we need some new coaches to fit with them. Just dont' bring back Milton or Millwood.

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 10:25 AM

From Phillyburbs.com...

PHILADELPHIA - Jose Mesa, public enemy No. 1 in Philadelphia this time a year ago, is back in town for the first time since last September and having fun at the Phillies' expense.
Mesa sure got a kick out of debuting with the Pittsburgh Pirates with an Opening Day save against the Phillies, and he loved celebrating his first trip to Citizens Bank Park with his new team, officially eliminating his old team from the playoff race on Monday night.

And while he's here, the Phillies' all-time saves leader couldn't resist the opportunity to take some shots at the fans who booed him out of town, Phillies manager Larry Bowa and pitching coach Joe Kerrigan.

It's been quite a season for Mesa, who has piled up 41 saves in 46 chances for the Pirates after enduring a nightmare third and final season with the Phils.

Mesa still is bitter about losing his closer job late in the 2003 season. Despite having a sky-high 6.52 ERA, he blew only four saves in 28 chances.

"I blew 16 saves in three years and that's not good enough?" Mesa said Tuesday before the Phillies-Pirates game was rained out. "Put it this way, when the Phillies decided I didn't have it, how many saves had I blown [last season]? Just four."

Mesa and Bowa purposely didn't cross paths Monday, just like in April when the Phillies opened the season in Pittsburgh.

"I don't say hi to and he don't say hi to me," said Mesa, who saved 42 games for the Phillies in 2001 and a club-record 46 in 2002. "It's plain and simple. I'm very disappointed by the way he treated me after what I did the first two years."

Still, amid reports that Bowa will be fired after the season, Mesa talks of having a bigger problem with Kerrigan, who replaced Vern Ruhle as Phillies pitching coach in 2003.

"That's the guy that's got to go," Mesa said of Kerrigan. "He thinks he knows everything. He don't know nothing. The first day he saw me in spring training , he don't even know me and he wants to change my mechanics. I've been pitching in the big leagues for 13 years with the same mechanics and he's going to change my mechanics in spring training the first year? The first day?"

It's Mesa's belief that Kerrigan also is to be blamed for Phillies pitcher Kevin Millwood struggling for two seasons after having success in Atlanta.

"You're talking about a guy who won 17, 18 games every year with Atlanta, so why are you going to change him?" Mesa said. "If it's not broke, don't fix it."

The Phillies were better off with Ruhle, Mesa said.

"Vern was good," he said. "I had my best two years with him. Then Kerrigan comes over and I have a terrible year, so what does that tell you? Then I come over to [Pittsburgh] and have a good year. So there you go."

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Mesa, who is 19th all-time with 290 saves, wound up having a tough time finding work this year. He called every team and received two offers to go to spring training as a non-roster player, with Baltimore as a potential set-up man and with Pittsburgh as a potential closer.

Choosing Pittsburgh for $800,000 (plus $565,000 in performance bonuses that already have been met) has worked out great for Mesa. Although the Pirates were never in a playoff race, he's had a great year.

By August, Mesa's name was mentioned in trade talks. San Francisco claimed him off waivers and then tried to work out a deal with Pittsburgh. Mesa squashed it by saying he wouldn't go to the Giants or anyone else while threatening to go home to the Dominican Republic if traded.

"In the winter, I was a free agent and anybody could get me for anything they wanted," said Mesa, who earned $5.2 million in 2003 with the Phils. "Nobody went after me, just Pittsburgh and Baltimore."

Mesa stayed with the Pirates, which meant he'd be forced to return to Philadelphia this week.

"It's just another city I played for," Mesa said.

The same can't be said for Phillies fans. Mesa was warned by former teammates that he'd be abused in the visiting bullpen at Citizens Bank Park. Fans standing above in Ashburn Alley have heckled opposing relievers all season, but everyone knew Mesa would get it worse than anyone.

"It was pretty bad, but it was mostly three or four guys" Mesa said. "They were screaming, 'You suck, you suck.' I didn't say anything, bro. I just listened."

Mesa chuckled when one fan yelled, "We know you lie about your age."

Mesa is listed at 38, but jokes that he's 60 and pitching like he's 21.

"I want to last 20 more years, so I'll be 80 years old pitching in the big leagues throwing 90 mph," he said.

With every insult, Mesa let out a long and loud laugh that seemed to go on for 10 seconds.

Mesa still is close to some of his old teammates, especially Latin players Bobby Abreu and Vicente Padilla. He says he's surprised the Phillies aren't playoff-bound, even with all their injuries.

"On paper, they look good, but you don't see it," he said.

Told the Phillies have a losing record at home, Mesa again smiled.

"That'll tell you it's the ballpark and the fans," he said, laughing again.

[b][i]DID YOU KNOW?

The last time the Phillies had back-to-back winning seasons was 1982 and 1983.

That is still so sad...first back-to-back winning seasons in a very long time...on the other Hand, mesa can shove it..he may be correct about Kerrigan, but he wonders why he lost his job after what he did last year? Shutup...

Birstel

09-29-2004, 11:50 AM

For someone who is playing for a team like the Pirates, he sure talks alot of shit.

Birstel

09-29-2004, 11:54 AM

I agree, after the way the Phillies played through most of this year it is time to give another manager a try.

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 12:03 PM

For someone who is playing for a team like the Pirates, he sure talks alot of shit.
I think the amazing part is the fact that he is renowned for being a choker, now that he is on a team with no shot at the playoffs he is a big talker?

Your ERA was 7.00 on a team that was a playoff contender, shut your mouth Joe Table.

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 12:04 PM

I agree, after the way the Phillies played through most of this year it is time to give another manager a try.I don't think there is any doubt about this...but the question is, is our management dumb enough not to fire him. In the case of Ed Wade, I would say yes. Expecially when you consider all the things that have come out over the past few years.

Nittany Tar Heel

09-29-2004, 01:05 PM

Edited because apparently I offended someone.....whatever

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 03:56 PM

Maybe we can broker a deal exchanging Ugie Urbina's mom for his.
I should Neg Rep you for that....but I'll be nice since you're new...that's not really funny.

Nittany Tar Heel

09-29-2004, 04:58 PM

Sheesh...I didn't know we were so touchy around here.

Obviously I was not serious about that.

Nittany Tar Heel

09-29-2004, 05:02 PM

Delete your quote if that really bothers you so much...I've edited the original......didn't think it was a big deal but whatever.

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 05:10 PM

Nittany Tar Heel

09-29-2004, 05:14 PM

LoL...its not that big of a deal, and I believe me, I'm a very sarcastic person, so I understand, I was just telling you I did not think it appropriate to joke about that situation. Don't worry, no big deal.
I'm the most sarcastic person I've ever met. Both a blessing and a curse. If my sarcasm is frowned upon here, I might as well ban myself.

Whatever though...I'm not bothered or anything, certainly isn't important enough to keep if it truly bothers someone. I just hear Holocaust jokes and stuff of that kind all over the place and think one kidnapping really pales in comparison.

Anyway, it's taken care of. On with the show...

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 05:17 PM

I'm the most sarcastic person I've ever met. Both a blessing and a curse. If my sarcasm is frowned upon here, I might as well ban myself.

Whatever though...I'm not bothered or anything, certainly isn't important enough to keep if it truly bothers someone. I just hear Holocaust jokes and stuff of that kind all over the place and think one kidnapping really pales in comparison.

Anyway, it's taken care of. On with the show...
- I think you'll find that if what you say is true that I'm like you when it comes to this...so no worries...sorry if I offended you at all.

Nittany Tar Heel

09-29-2004, 05:21 PM

We're cool...I remember you from the Phillies boards...I know we're alike in our take on things.

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 07:54 PM

Cormier Sad About The Move..

From Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- Though he knows the Expos' move to Washington, D.C. is a benefit for the players and the franchise, Rheal Cormier can't exactly be happy about it.

Cormier, a French Canadian, remembers a different time for baseball and the fans of the Expos, who are relocating to the nation's capital next season, and will play at RFK Stadium.

"To see what's happened the past few years, it's sad," he said. "But I've seen what the players have gone through. This is going to be good for the players."

Cormier, who grew up in Moncton, New Brunswick, and became an American citizen last week, always enjoyed visiting Montreal during his seasons with the Cardinals in the early '90s. His family would often make the 12 1/2-hour drive to see him pitch. He played with the Expos in 1996 and 1997.

"I've been an Expos fan since I was kid," he said. "It was great then, it's sad to see where it is now with the crowds and all that stuff. But I think the team deserves better."

Cormier especially remembers visiting Montreal for a four-game series in August 1994, a week before the players' strike cost that team a chance at a possible World Series.

"They kicked our tail," he said. "In one game we had a big lead in the eighth and they came back. I think they would have won it all that year. They had hitting, defense, speed, pitching."

He spent his final weekend in Montreal last week, when the Phillies completed a three-game series. As a French-speaking citizen, Cormier always enjoyed the give-and-take with the fans, as both an Expos and as a visitor. "It's different because people would speak to me in French," he said. "It was always nice to acknowledge them. People would yell, 'Lance-moi la balle,' [Throw me the ball]. I'm going to miss going there. I really like the city and going there."

PhilaVa

09-29-2004, 07:55 PM

From Phillies.com 09/29/04

Thome still out: Continuing his medical examinations, Jim Thome had an EKG performed on Wednesday, and missed both games of Wednesday's doubleheader.

"It's just what it is," Thome said. "We just want to be safe. [My chest] was still tight."

Thome hasn't felt completely right since colliding with catcher Todd Pratt on Sept. 15 in Cincinnati. He played in the Marlins series, but not much before or since. Still listed as day-to-day, Thome said he's not ready to shut it down for the season, despite the fact that the Phillies are eliminated from the postseason.

"I still want to play," he said. "I've had a lot of nagging things this season, and it adds up this season."

Fighting through injuries to three different fingers, including a broken left middle finger, Thome is batting .275 with 42 homers and 104 RBIs this season. He's cooled off in September, hitting .230.

Thome a finalist: Thome received accolades from his peers when he was named a finalist for the Marvin Miller Man of the Year Award for the 2004 Players Choice Awards.

Players voted in 10 categories, and Thome is a finalist, along with St. Louis' Albert Pujols and Detroit's Dmitri Young. The balloting was conducted on Sept. 15-16, and the winners will be announced at a later date. Each of the winners will have a grant donated to the charity of their choice.

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 12:49 PM

From Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- While Pat Burrell isn't sure of all his offseason plans, he knows surgery on his left wrist won't be on his to-do list.

"I know that much," Burrell said, smiling after his second four-hit game of the season on Thursday. "I don't feel any pain whatsoever."

Burrell hurt himself during batting practice on Aug. 3 in San Diego and missed a month. During that time, he received opinions from several doctors, including team physican Michael Ciccotti, who recommended surgery. After receiving an opinion from a specialist in Baltimore, Burrell opted to put off the procedure and try to come back this season.

Returning Sept. 3, Burrell taped his wrist, but the important thing is that he was able to play. Though he's hitting .235, he's hit six homers.

On Monday, he'll visit Ciccotti and explain his decision.

"I'm going to tell him I'm fine," Burrell said. "I'd be interested to hear what he has to say. I've never been in a situation where anybody told me I needed to have surgery. This was new. Thankfully, I didn't have it.

"It's great that I've been able to be out there and help."

Abreu wins pair of awards: In the midst of one of his best seasons, Bobby Abreu has delivered off the field as well, and was recognized on Thursday as the winner of the fourth annual Phillies Community Service Award.

Abreu received a check for $10,000 from Phillies Charities to be donated to the charity of his choice. The award is given yearly to a Phillie for his contributions. This is the fourth season for the award -- the three previous winners are Doug Glanville, Mike Lieberthal and Randy Wolf.

"It feels very good to win this award," said Abreu. "It's life, and I enjoy helping people who really need help. I really want to do it."

In 2004, Abreu has continued his "Abreu's Amigos" program, where he purchases $10,000 in tickets, T-shirts and concessions for underprivileged children's groups. Abreu meets with each group on the field during batting practice. In the previous offseason, Abreu visited a PAL Center, a Boys and Girls Club and the Spanish Council of Philadelphia. Since joining the Phillies in 1998, Abreu has supported several organizations.

The accolades didn't end there. On Thursday, Abreu was honored as the Phillies' winner of Major League Baseball's Roberto Clemente Award. During the World Series, MLB will present the official Roberto Clemente Award to the game's top giving player. Jim Thome won the award in 2002.

As a fellow right fielder and Latin ballplayer, Abreu grew up hearing stories about Clemente, the Puerto Rican who died in a plane crash in Nicaragua in 1971, while delivering supplies to earthquake victims.

"That's special," Abreu said of winning the award. "We followed Roberto. The way he handled people and showed us the way [to help people]."

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 01:16 PM

From Phillies.com

MVP: Despite spending just four months in the Eastern League this season, Ryan Howard was recognized for his impressive accomplishments there.

The slugging first baseman was named the Most Valuable Player of the Double-A Eastern League.

"It seems like a little bit ago," said Howard, who also blew through Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre before earning a September callup. While at Double-A Reading, the 24-year-old set a club record with 37 home runs, and for the second straight year was named the Paul Owens Award winner, given to the organization's top position prospect.

Howard's home run total ranked second in the EL, despite all the missed time. He finished first in the league with 102 RBIs and a .647 slugging percentage. At Class A Clearwater last season, he was named the Florida State League MVP after leading the league with a .304 average and 20 home runs.

As nice as the minor league honors are, Howard doesn't want a chance to repeat.

"Everybody's objective is to stay at this level," he said.

To that end, the Phillies plan to test Howard in the outfield in the Arizona Fall League, a challenge Howard looks forward to, especially if it increases his trade value or role with the Phillies. He's still waiting for his outfielder's glove to arrive.

"We'll see how it goes," he said.

Other than playing in Arizona, Howard to catch up on his rest and bowling this season. Since joining a league in the offseason of 2003, he's been hooked. Though he has no professional aspirations, Howard is proud of a game in which he rolled a 258.

Philling in: Thome is still out with a chest contusion, and manager Larry Bowa said he won't play him until team doctor Michael Ciccotti gives the OK. ... Former slugger Greg "The Bull" Luzinski will pump gas in honor of Mobil's Customer Appreciation Weekend on Friday. Luzinski, also the proprietor of popular Bull's BBQ at Citizens Bank Park, will be at two New Jersey locations. From 11 a.m. to 12:30 p.m., he'll be at the Mobil Station at 500 North Broad Street, Woodbury, N.J., and from 1 p.m. to 2:30 p.m., at the Mobil Station at 1395 Hurffville Road, Deptford, N.J.

Invader Newt

10-01-2004, 02:57 PM

If Howard can adequately fill the roll of outfielder it may mean Pat Burrells days in Philly are numbered. If he can hack it i'll take Howards sweet compact swing (even with his strike out totals) over Burrels monstrosity of flawed mechanics anyday, it would also give the Phillie money to go after Beltran

That would put our lineup at.

Rollins
Byrd (or whoever replaces him in center, Beltran berhaps)
Abreu
Thome
Utley
Howard
Bell
Lieberthal
Pitcher

Or Utley at #2 and Byrd down at #8

Also Heard Polonco might be resigned and used like Mariano Duncan was in 93, basically an everyday player but with no specific position to call his own, basically playing everywhere. Polonco can play 1b, 2b, ss, 3b and the outfield, though he only played a couple games in the outfield for the Cardinals.

We'll have to see how this shakes out

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 03:03 PM

I'm not sure what's going to happen with Howard, I don't know if he can even play outfeild, lets hope he can therefore he can at least have a chance with the Phillies organization, otherwise we are just goign to have to trade him.

I don't see a way that Burrell is not still a Phillie, I'm not sure how we would get rid of him. I would love to have Beltran but that is also very doubtful.

Here is the lineup as I see it now..

Rollins, SS
Utley, 2B
Abreu, RF
Thome, 1B
Bell, 3B
Burrell, LF
Lieberthal, C
Byrd, CF

The question for me is, I heard Lieberthal would be moving on, anyone has any info on that situation and could inform me?

Invader Newt

10-01-2004, 03:10 PM

He's signed through 2006 and has stated he doesn't plan to retire at least until his contract is up. So Barring a trade he'll be the catcher here this coming year and the one after that. I', ok with that we have nobody in our farm system worth promoting and we can do alot worse than Lieberthal

I am sure if we package a deal just right and eat a portion of Burrels contract we can intrest someone in him, he does still have some huge upside, but it's all about him realizing he needs to correct his swing and then going out and doing it. until he gets rid of that rediculous lunge he's basically going to be Rob Deer....Tremendous power, hitting .250 or less

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 03:19 PM

asheylarry

10-01-2004, 03:20 PM

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 03:27 PM

No chance of this management spending the money it would take to get Beltran. There is a simple solution to Burrel's struggles(which have honestly been blown out of proportion this season) is getting rid of Bowa and hiring Manuel as the hitting instructor. Hiring Manuel would be a big help for everyone, not just Burrel, but getting rid of Bowa IMO would alleviate a lot of Pat's problems.

Very disappointed that the organization did not go after Minaya. What should I expect from loser owners who think Ed Wade is a capable and competent GM.

They can't go after him if they said Ed Wade is coming back, so you can be dissapointed that Ed Wade would be back. What exactly did Minaya do that everyone is so hyper about him? Please do tell, but I do think whatever it was, it's still better then Wade.

asheylarry

10-01-2004, 04:19 PM

They can't go after him if they said Ed Wade is coming back, so you can be dissapointed that Ed Wade would be back. What exactly did Minaya do that everyone is so hyper about him? Please do tell, but I do think whatever it was, it's still better then Wade.
Well I basically like the fact that he knows baseball. Something Ed Wade knows nothing about.

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 04:22 PM

Well I basically like the fact that he knows baseball. Something Ed Wade knows nothing about.

I was just wondering if Manya had done something special, b/c I dont' remember him doing much, although he realy didn't have a chance, like I said i still do feel he is better then Ed Wade.

asheylarry

10-01-2004, 04:34 PM

I was just wondering if Manya had done something special, b/c I dont' remember him doing much, although he realy didn't have a chance, like I said i still do feel he is better then Ed Wade.
IMO anyone is better than Ed Wade.

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 04:41 PM

IMO anyone is better than Ed Wade.

I can't complain with that, but the way people were talking about Minaya it was like he was John Sheholtz or something.

Amazingly the Mets have had a worse year in the front office then have the Phils.

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 06:22 PM

From SportsNet.com

Because David Bell is a baseball lifer, there isn't much he hasn't seen. After all, his grandfather Gus was an All-Star who played for 15 seasons in the big leagues.

Then there is Buddy Bell, David's father, who was an All-Star and Gold-Glove third baseman during his 18-year big league career. Buddy also managed the Rockies and Tigers for six seasons.

David has played in 35 playoff games, was a member of the 2001 Seattle Mariners that won 116 games, won the state championship for Cincinnati's Moeller High with teammate Ken Griffey Jr. and has played for five big league teams. He's been around.

All that being the case, when David Bell says something about baseball, it's a good idea to listen because he knows what he's talking about.

So when Bell says that Jimmy Rollins is the best defensive shortstop he has ever played with, it resonates. Come on, it's David Bell. He knows his stuff.

But what's most telling isn't that David Bell spoke a sentence proclaiming Rollins the best shortstop he has played along side. No, the telling part is the list of shortstops that Bell has been teamed with. Royce Clayton, Shawon Dunston, Carlos Guillen and Rich Aurilia were all fine big league shortstops. But Ozzie Smith, Omar Vizquel and Alex Rodriguez, those guys are the elite of the elite.

Rollins is better than them.

Oh sure, Rollins clearly isn't the offensive threat Rodriguez is, nor is he the walking web gem that Smith was. But if you want a guy who makes the plays, Rollins is your man.

To localize it a bit, manager Larry Bowa, a pretty extraordinary defensive shortstop in his own right, says Rollins should go down as the best in franchise history.

"All he has to do is keep doing it over an extended period of time," Bowa said.

At least for this season, Rollins has. Though he got off to a slow start with the bat, Rollins has arguably been the club's most consistent hitter. Though he went through some growing pains over the past two seasons, Rollins has solidified the leadoff spot in the order. Since moving up to the top spot in May, Rollins has hit .294 with 11 homers, 19 stolen bases and 85 runs. More importantly, he has struck out just 55 times in 472 at-bats heading into Wednesday's doubleheader against the Pirates, even though that number doesn't really reflect in his rather ordinary .355 on-base percentage.

Nonetheless, there has never been a question about his defense. In fact, Rollins is even impressed in a non-chalant kind of way.

''I'd say I've made 98 percent of the plays this year,'' said Rollins, who has a career-low nine errors in 147 games. ''I made a couple of bad throws when I lost my concentration. I had a couple of short-hop throws, but Jim Thome was there to pick them. He earned some of his money by scooping them out.''

Still, there is something kind of strange about why Rollins has never been a finalist for the Gold Glove Award in the past. Though coaches and managers make the selections, it does seem as if offensive skills are factored in. Because of that, Rollins hasn't gotten his hopes up too high.

''I'd be happy to even get my name on the Gold Glove list for the first time,'' Rollins said. ''I've got a pretty good highlight reel.''

Whether he gets the Gold Glove or not, Rollins plans on spending his off-season pretty much the same way as he has in the past. That means two weeks in San Diego where he will work on hitting techniques with Tony Gwynn before he heads back to the San Francisco Bay Area to decorate his new house. He also plans to workout so much that he comes into spring training ''looking like a world-class body builder.''

There is also a chance that Rollins could have a few chats with the Phillies about a new contract. Though he is not eligible to be a free agent until after the 2006 season, the Phils would be smart to sign up the soon-to-be 26 year old before free agent shortstops like Orlando Cabrera, Nomar Garciaparra and Rafael Furcal set the market standard. In fact, Cabrera turned down 4-year, $30 million contract offer from the Expos in the spring after putting up 2003 numbers comparable to the ones Rollins posted in 2004. At the very least, Rollins should be able to double his $2.425 million he earned in 2004 in arbitration if the Phils fail to be proactive.

Whether or not the Phillies want to chat, Rollins, again, is non-plussed.

''That's their decision. Of course, I'd be receptive. But, whatever happens, happens," Rollins said. "If you play the game long enough, you're eventually going to be able to decide where you want to go. That's what free agency is all about.''

At the same time, the 2004 season is ending in a manner that disappoints Rollins. He may have had a defining season, but it feels a bit hollow because the team underachieved.

''On Oct. 3, we're all going to be packed up and going home,'' Rollins said. ''That's not good. We had opportunities and we let them slip through the cracks.''

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 08:41 PM

Speaking of JRoll, yet another great game tonight, which assures the Phils of finishing alone in second place. MVP of the Phillies this year if you ask me.

asheylarry

10-01-2004, 09:07 PM

Really the only constant on a team full of inconsistencies all year.

JRoll

10-01-2004, 10:11 PM

Speaking of JRoll, yet another great game tonight, which assures the Phils of finishing alone in second place. MVP of the Phillies this year if you ask me.
Damn right he's MVP of the team this year. Him and Abreu were the best 2 players this year by far. JRoll deserves a gold glove and I'm surprised Bell put him up there with A-Rod and the Wizard in terms of defense but he deserves it.

PhilaVa

10-01-2004, 10:11 PM

From Phillies.com...

PHILADELPHIA -- Milestone Mike Lieberthal was at it again Thursday.

A little more than a week after pounding the club's 200th home run of the season, Lieberthal blazed his way to another mark, swiping the team's 100th stolen base. Not a misprint, the Phillies reached the century mark because of Lieberthal's legs, in a display of speed not seen in these parts in more than four years.

"It was amazing to see a pig fly through a frozen hell," said Randy Wolf. "He only steals a base every election year."

The theft was the eighth of Lieberthal's career and first since July 9, 2000. Only slightly less weird was the fact that stolen base No. 99 came from Pat Burrell. Both came during a six-run seventh inning in a 7-4 win.

It was perhaps the most shocking display in a season of surprises. The Phillies' dugout sat in stunned silence as they saw Lieberthal dash toward second. Guillermo Mota didn't hold Lieberthal, but he still needed an impressive fadeaway slide to evade the tag by shortstop Alex Gonzalez.

After singling in an insurance run, first-base coach Milt Thompson told the catcher he was on his own, so he went on the first pitch.

Not safe by a mile, but safe nonetheless.

"He should have been out just because he ran," said Doug Glanville. "I would have called him out as soon as he took his first step. He didn't give anybody fair warning [that he was going]. We all said 'What?' at the same time. Let's see if he can get up to 10 next year."

Something special: It didn't take Bobby Abreu long to sum up fellow Venezuelan Miguel Cabrera. Since first seeing him last season and through this series, his opinion hasn't changed.

"He's come to be an amazing player," Abreu said. "He's got a lot of talent, and it doesn't surprise me what he's done. Last year, he did a lot as a rookie, but now he's even more comfortable. Watch out."

In his first full Major League season, Cabrera entered Friday hitting .297 with 31 homers and 109 RBIs. And Abreu sees even more potential, and told him as much at the All-Star Game.

"I told him I was proud of him, because he knows how to handle the game," Abreu said. "I congratulated him and told him how good a player he was going to be."

"I compare him to Albert Pujols," added manager Larry Bowa. "The Latin guys play every day from when they are eight years old. In the States, kids play all the sports and don't really concentrate on one until they get older. The Latin guys concentrate on baseball. They all have great instincts from playing so much."

Quotable: "If Spring Training started tomorrow, he'd have to win a job as the starting center fielder," -- Bowa, on Marlon Byrd

thomeismyhomie

10-02-2004, 03:37 AM

JRoll= "da man" IMO. I have said it a million times, "I am so proud of that kid!". He and Madson have shown a ton of leadership for such young players. Guys who go out there and just do it, no matter what. Get the damn job done. I absolutely love the idea of having JRoll, Madson, Chase, and Gavin Floyd on the same roster next year. I mean, what an injection of pure young talent? I cant wait to se what they can do.

Treypops

10-02-2004, 03:50 AM

While I think Rollins is a hell of a defensive SS, I don't see how Izturis doesn't win the Gold Glove this season with Khalil Greene finishing in second place.

thomeismyhomie

10-02-2004, 04:11 AM

Treypops

10-02-2004, 04:23 AM

Man, I am so damn tired of hearing about Khalil Green. Get over it! He's a good yougn shortstop but thats it. There is no way that anyone outside the Philly nation could ever appreciate JRoll's D any more than we do. He simply gets the job done, and done extremely well.
But Greene and Izturis have a huge leg up on Rollins because they are always getting hyped on BBTN and SC. Also, Rollins would also have another disadvantage with Renteria having won the award last year. He will automatically receive some votes based upon winning it already, and that's not mentioning Renteria's D. It's not as good as last year but he's still upper echelon.

thomeismyhomie

10-02-2004, 04:27 AM

Rollins has an advantage over those West Coast guys though cause you know we on the east side, dont know them very well. Sure, Khalil Green makes some great plays but JRoll makes great plays and commits very few errors. I am not disagreeing with your statement, I am just making a small case for me and JRoll11's boy!

Treypops

10-02-2004, 04:30 AM

Oh, I understand. I just think Rollins is extremely hurt by how BBTN ignores him unless he hits an uncharacteristic home run.

thomeismyhomie

10-02-2004, 04:35 AM

No doubt, I agree. It's BBTN that I blame for all the Khalil Green crap. harold Reynolds is so eager to crown the next Ozzie Smith, that he is overlooking guys who just go out and make plays, like an Enteria or a JRoll. I mean, so what that Green and Furcal can get to balls that others cant, they also throw the ball 50 rows deep and cost their teams runs. I mean, I have all the respect in the world for a young kid like Khalil Green, but to call him ROY(Jason Bay, no doubt) and blah blah blah, is just ridiculous. It's like saying Jaon Richardson is the best basketball player alive cause he does the best slam dunks.

SU Nittany Tide

10-02-2004, 11:54 AM

While I think Rollins is a hell of a defensive SS, I don't see how Izturis doesn't win the Gold Glove this season with Khalil Greene finishing in second place.
If Greene finishes second (or anywhere high) that wills how exactly how pathetic the Gold Glove voting is. His 20 errors and very below average .965 fielding percentage are the third worst in the National League for crying out loud. If anyone votes for him they should turn in their resignation for they opportunity to vote for the award immediately. Saying Greene should get the Gold Glove or even be voted very highly would be like saying Furcal should as well.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 11:58 AM

From Philadelphia Inquirer...

Changes are on the way for the Phillies.

Manager Larry Bowa will be fired after the season and pitching coach Joe Kerrigan will offer his resignation before or shortly after tomorrow's season finale at Citizens Bank Park, multiple team sources said last night.

Other coaching-staff changes also could be in the works.

"I know I've done a pretty good job with what I'm supposed to do," Bowa said this week when asked about his managing future.

"If they feel they have to do something, then they have to do it. I'm not going to worry about it. I'll be somewhere in a uniform. If it's in A ball, if it's in the big leagues, I'll be involved in baseball.

"And you know what? This is the first time in my life where no matter what happens, if I want to take a year off, I'll take a year off. But I don't want to take a year off. I'm going to be in baseball, and hopefully it'll be in this city."

General manager Ed Wade has repeatedly said that he wouldn't comment on Bowa's job status until after the season. An announcement on Bowa is expected next week.

Bowa entered the 2004 season already on the hot seat. The team added closer Billy Wagner, setup man Tim Worrell and starter Eric Milton in the off-season. It had a franchise-record $93 million payroll.

The team had been expected not only to win the National League East, but to contend for the pennant. But the Phillies, who suffered injuries to several key players, underachieved.

They were out of the playoff race last month.

Bowa's relationship with his players has been under constant scrutiny for the last few years. That issue flared up again this season, culminating in a team meeting at Pro Player Stadium in July after the Florida Marlins swept them in four games.

Bowa succeeded Terry Francona as manager before the 2001 season. After last night's 6-2 victory over the Florida Marlins at Citizens Bank Park, his career record was 337-308 with the Phillies (a .522 winning percentage).

Bowa also had an 81-127 record (.389 winning percentage) in less than two full seasons as the San Diego Padres' manager in 1987 and 1988.

None of his teams made the playoffs.

"I've been fired every time we lose three games in a row, except for my first year," Bowa, who is 57, said recently, referring to speculation about his job status. "I think I got a pass that year. But after that, every three-game losing streak I've been fired.

"I've been fired about 50 times in three years. I don't worry about it. I couldn't care less. I know how much work I do. I know how much time I put in."

Kerrigan, who was unlikely to have his contract renewed anyway, had no comment on his future last night. Asked recently about the possibility of resigning, Kerrigan dismissed the talk but wouldn't say no.

Kerrigan's departure should be welcome news to members of the pitching staff. Many pitchers have been at odds with him for the last two years.

Multiple team and player sources also confirmed that Kerrigan was involved in a physical confrontation with a pitcher earlier this season in Bowa's office.

thomeismyhomie

10-02-2004, 12:04 PM

You know, it's really too bad. Bowa is a good guy and means a lot to the city. I really hope that he and Kevin Millwood have success somewhere else. As much as we bag on those guys, you can never take away the fact that they gave us all they could. We do need a fresh start though. Like I said in another post....what about Mike Hargrove? Noone gives him enough credit cause the Indians were so loaded with talent. But, he took that team and molded them in to stars. I'm sure he and Manuel have a good relationship as well. I know he never won the big one though, just figured I'd throw a new name out there.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 05:11 PM

News Conference at 6 PM, the Phillies are expected to fire Larry Bowa.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 05:26 PM

From Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- The Phillies announced the dismissal of manager Larry Bowa, effective immediately, at a press conference Saturday at Citizens Bank Park.

Before Saturday's game, Bowa bristled at questions regarding the reports.

"I'm not talking about it," he said. "You guys have all speculated about it anyway."

The Phillies' streak of missing the playoffs will be at 11 years when the season ends Sunday, but Bowa finished with winning records and led his team to serious playoff contention twice in his first three seasons. But with a $93-million payroll and high expectations, the team fell out of the playoff chase by late August.

The Phillies were 337-308 under Bowa since 2001, including 85-75 this season.

So who is managing tonight?

FreezeC2

10-02-2004, 05:40 PM

Varsho is managing the last two games.

Bowa sucked as a strategic manager, he was a problem. Ed Wade is a bigger problemt though.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 05:43 PM

Varsho is managing the last two games.

Bowa sucked as a strategic manager, he was a problem. Ed Wade is a bigger problemt though.

I love Bowa, but it's clear it just wasn't working. I do not like Wade but I think we can still at least get to the playoffs with him. He doesn't effect the team on an every day basis, this team is good enough to make the playoffs, that's all I can ask from Wade, even though he is a shmuck.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 06:07 PM

From Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- Many teams throughout the Major Leagues have it, so why not the Phillies, Randy Miller thought.

Miller is the Chairman of the Philadelphia Chapter of the Baseball Writers Association of America and has been covering the team for nine years. He felt the time was right this season for the Philadelphia Chapter of the BBWAA to award season-ending achievements to the Phillies.

Miller, who works for the Bucks County Courier Times, thought it would be a nice touch to name each award after a prominent member of the Phillies' 1980 World Series championship team.

So Bobby Abreu was selected the winner of the Mike Schmidt Most Valuable Player Award, Ryan Madson received the Steve Carlton Most Valuable Pitcher Trophy, third-base coach John Vukovich was awarded the Dallas Green Special Achievement Award and reliever Amaury Telemaco was chosen for the Tug McGraw Good Guy Award.

Abreu prevailed in a tight 15-13 vote over shortstop Jimmy Rollins. Abreu was selected to his first All-Star Game this season, and entering Friday, is among the league leaders in walks (126), on-base percentage (.425), runs (116), doubles (44) and stolen bases (40). He also leads Phillies regulars with a .297 average and is second with 29 homers and 103 RBIs. Jim Thome and David Bell tied for third with one vote apiece.

"We've seen a lot of seasons like the one Bobby has had this year," Phillies general manager Ed Wade said. "The only difference between this year and previous years is that Bobby is finally getting the recognition. These things he's done, he's done year after year. Bobby's one of the best players in the league, he plays every day, so he's very deserving of this honor."

Madson edged Eric Milton in the vote, 13-12, for the Carlton Award. A longshot to make the team out of Spring Training, Madson went to the bullpen for the first time and is 9-3 with a 2.43 ERA and a save in 50 games. His 1.72 ERA in 49 relief appearances is third best among National League relievers with at least 30 games. Tim Worrell finished third with five votes.

"It's just an honor to be recognized like this," Madson said. "And just to be mentioned with Steve Carlton, a Hall of Famer, makes it even more special."

Vukovich was awarded the Dallas Green Special Achievement Award for setting a Phillies record by coaching his 17th season in 2004. That broke the previous standard set by Mike Ryan from 1980-95. Vukovich overcome a brain tumor during his run and has served under five different managers since 1988: Lee Elia, Nick Leyva, Jim Fregosi, Terry Francona and Larry Bowa. Vukovich won with 16 votes, with Thome finishing second with nine votes for becoming the 37th Major Leaguer to hit 400 home runs.

"The one thing we wanted to do with the special achievement was open it up to other members of the organization," Miller said. "Vuck's done a lot for this organization, and he's been coaching here longer than any other coach in the history of the organization. That says a lot."

In a tight vote, Telemaco beat out catcher Mike Lieberthal, 8-6, for the Tug McGraw Award, named in honor of the late former relief pitcher who lost a heroic nine-month battle with brain cancer at age 59 in January. Telemaco's beaming smile, bright personality and solid contribution to the bullpen made him the choice over Lieberthal, Thome, Doug Glanville and Randy Wolf.

"I've been doing this for nine years and this is the best clubhouse I've ever dealt with," Miller said. "There are so many good guys in there, which made this vote especially tough. You have a Lieberthal, who talks even after his team loses a tough game. You have some great guys in there, like Glanville, Thome, Rollins, Abreu and Wolf. This is the first year we've done this with the awards, we're just hoping to make it a tradition."

Thirty members of the Philadelphia chapter of BBWAA voted on the Schmidt, Carlton and Green Awards, while 21 who regularly interview players voted on the McGraw Award.

Winners were presented with a home plate-shaped glass trophy in a pregame ceremony at Citizens Bank Park before Friday's Phillies-Marlins game.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 06:10 PM

From Phillies.com

PHILADELPHIA -- Cory Lidle made his final sales pitch to the Phillies, displaying an uncanny knack for shutting down teams who reside in the National League East.

Lidle (12-12) made the Marlins his latest victim on Friday at Citizens Bank Park, holding them to two runs in a 6-2 win that clinched second place for the Phillies. After starting the season 1-11 against Florida, Philadelphia has now won the last five meetings.

Lidle's win over the Marlins was his second this season, and moved him to 8-0 with a 2.66 ERA against the East this season, counting his time with the Reds. His team, be it Cincinnati or Philadelphia, is 10-0 in his starts.

"I had no idea those numbers even existed," he said. "I don't have an explanation for it really. I might want to stay in the East."

The Phillies might want that, too. In 10 starts since arriving from Cincinnati, Lidle is 5-2 with a 3.90 ERA, including two complete-game shutouts. In six September starts, his ERA is 2.57.

Florida had plenty of chances against Lidle, lacing nine hits off him, thanks in large part to the right-hander constantly being around the plate. The righty had thrown just four balls through the first four innings.

He escaped his final jam in the sixth, a bases-loaded spot that he worked out of by getting Lenny Harris to ground to second. Ryan Madson and Billy Wagner finished up.

The Phillies started early against starter David Weathers, scoring a run in the first. After the Marlins took the lead in the fifth, the Phillies came back in the sixth.

With Matt Perisho (3-2) on in relief, Placido Polanco curled a home run around the left-field foul pole to give Philadelphia a one-run lead. Jimmy Rollins, continuing his brilliant campaign, clubbed a solo homer in the seventh, and Mike Lieberthal provided insurance with a two-run single in the eighth.

Other than dominating the East, Lidle is making a great case to remain with the Phillies. An extreme ground ball pitcher, he may be a perfect back-of-the-rotation starter for 2005, as long as he's within the Phillies' budget.

Lidle is among three potential free agents from within the starting rotation, along with Kevin Millwood and Eric Milton. The durable veteran is among the National League leaders with 211 1/3 innings pitched.

"The way baseball is now, you need one or two of those guys to give you 200 innings," said manager Larry Bowa.

The Phillies had three hurlers reach the 200-inning mark last season, and a fourth, Brett Myers, get to 193. Eric Milton will be the only Phillie who's been here all season to reach that mark.

Many of the Phillies found little consolation in finishing second.

"It means you're the first loser," said Billy Wagner.

"It puts a little positive spin, but we didn't reach where we wanted to reach," added Lidle.

Bowa was frustrated because he feels injuries played the biggest part in the Phillies not reaching the postseason.

"I didn't have my team," he said. "It was a tougher haul because we didn't have our weapons."

As for next season, Lidle said he's open to discussing contract with the Phillies, and likes the veterans he sees in the clubhouse.

Enyalois

10-02-2004, 06:20 PM

What I don't understand is why they couldn't wait for the next two games to be over with before firing him.

asheylarry

10-02-2004, 07:36 PM

What I don't understand is why they couldn't wait for the next two games to be over with before firing him.
ESPN reported that Bowa had gotten tired of all the questions and speculation from the media. He had a meeting with Wade where he basically said "If I'm going to be fired, I want to know sooner rather than later." So, Wade felt the fairest thing to do was can him now. IMO, that decision came 2-3 months late.

PhilaVa

10-02-2004, 08:39 PM

Vuk should be shown the door also...watching him blow another game for us with his crappy miscuse at third base is enough, I've had it up to here with that crap, it's not that hard to be the third base coach.

asheylarry

10-02-2004, 08:44 PM

thomeismyhomie

10-03-2004, 03:12 AM

That's cool. We all have agreed that Abreu and Madson along with JRoll have been our MVP's. It'll be interesting to see where their roles take them next year.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 09:45 AM

You shouldn't talk about the Dallas Green Award winner like that.

He was given the Dallas Green Award due to him being a coach for a very long time, not anything he did on the field, I think we all know Vuk was not good at third this year, cost us last night..but at least at this point it doesn't matter.

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 09:48 AM

I was just joking around. I honestly don't get to see enough games to evaluate the ability of Vuk.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 09:49 AM

Couple Stories on the Bowa Firing...

From Phillies.com..

Expectations come with a noose. In a sport where the need to live one day at a time is always reinforced, not living up to long-range projections often tightens that noose.

Expectations also come in different hues. Thus, on the same day the defending World Series champions announced Jack McKeon's return for 2005, it officially ended for Larry Bowa, whose Phillies will finish ahead of the Marlins.

But a distant-second place finish simply didn't cut it in Philadelphia. Not after two offseasons of dramatic improvements, including a new ballpark that was designed to rock into October.

And neither was it particularly impressive for Bowa to guide the Phillies to consecutive winning seasons for the first time in over two decades.

Minor victories when major ones were expected. As Philadelphia general manager Ed Wade said in announcing the move Saturday, "Our goal wasn't to finish second. Our goal wasn't to go through the things we've gone through this year."

So Wade is reloading, already looking forward to making next March a time of eager anticipation, not of dread.

"I would certainly hope that the atmosphere we create in Spring Training will allow us to get to our ultimate goal," he said. "That's our responsibility -- to create a different environment."

It may be a cliche, but Bowa truthfully was a Dead Manager Walking virtually all season. From the moment the Phillies hosed down those high hopes by losing six of their first seven games, he had to watch his back.

He had to debate his reputation as a demanding manager prone to criticizing players. He had to claim to have become a more tolerant, cooler-headed man. He had to dismiss stories that the temperature in the clubhouse would drop 20 degrees the moment he walked in.

The daily tension was hardly conducive to the club rallying back to life. So there is a lot of blame to dole out for the Phillies' season coming apart.

Most of it, of course, goes to the Atlanta Braves, for the nerve to rediscover their championship level. From their last day behind the Phillies in the standings -- July 16 -- until clinching their 13th straight title, the Braves went 44-21 to Philadelphia's 32-32.

Wade gets a share. Had he made the difficult move months ago, when it already seemed inevitable, the Phillies may have U-turned. Hypothetical -- but not entirely; see Astros and Phil Garner.

"No way to know the answer to that question," Wade protested. "When it became an issue, we wanted to ... give Larry and his staff every opportunity to finish it."

Bowa is no innocent. He did poison the well by too often harping on his roster's shortcomings, a not-so-veiled rip at Wade for not doing more to service his needs.

And a whole lotta blame goes to the players. To last season's quartet of 14-game winners (Vicente Padilla, Randy Wolf, Kevin Millwood, Brett Myers), for winning a total of 31 games. To Jim Thome, for batting under .200 with men in scoring position. To Billy Wagner, for getting half the saves he had in 2003, and blaming team trainers along the way.

All that is in theory.

In perception, the responsibility is all Bowa's. In reality, he is the only one who today does not have his job.

Saying that Larry Bowa is a throwback, to less-sensitive times when managers were concerned only with results and not feelings, is not to condemn him. He is not alone.

But neither does it excuse him. Others of the same baseball generation -- Tony La Russa, Bobby Cox, Felipe Alou, Joe Torre -- have been able to fully adapt.

"We're not going to portray Larry as a scapegoat," Wade said.

A proud (maybe, too proud) man, Bowa long ago seemed to have come to terms with his fate. And he was at peace with it.

"Life isn't fair," he'd said, back in the middle of August. "I'm not worrying, because I do the best I can.

"We," he had added, including all of his coaches, "have done a pretty good job."

As Wade implied, Philadelphia wasn't anticipating "pretty good." And the best of Bowa's Phillies came "pretty late," a September (19-8) that was MLB's second-best.

"I'll be fine whatever happens," Bowa had said, more recently. "I'm pretty mentally tough. I've been through a lot of stuff. If they want to blame the manager, fine ... this doesn't bother me."

But, of course, we are all bothered when what we perceived to be our best is judged not good enough. Larry Bowa is no different.

That yellow legal pad on which he had scribbled his farewell words of gratitude to the Phillies organization? Maybe there were some tear stains on it.

So the season ends with the Phillies indeed fulfilling a destiny, but the wrong one.

During Spring Training, within its season preview, one national magazine predicted that the NL Manager of the Year would be Charlie Manuel. Since the ex-Cleveland skipper was on board as a special assistant to Wade, the facetious forecast's implications were clear:

Larry Bowa would not last the season.

He came within two games of proving that wrong. But in this case, coming close did him as much good as coming in second.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 09:51 AM

From Philadelphia Iquirer...

Larry Bowa loved baseball, and he especially loved managing the Phillies.

It was his life.

But after yesterday, managing the Phillies was his life no more.

General manager Ed Wade announced Bowa's firing just hours before the Phillies lost to the Florida Marlins, 4-3, at Citizens Bank Park in the next-to-last game of the season.

Bowa's dismissal ended two months of nearly endless speculation about his job status. The speculation surfaced seriously for the first time at the end of July, when the Florida Marlins swept the Phillies in a four-game series at Pro Player Stadium.

It became clear that as the Phillies underachieved and failed to make the postseason, despite injuries to several key players, Bowa's time finally had come to an end. After last night's loss, the Phils fell to 85-76; they are second in the National League East.

Bowa left the ballpark yesterday without speaking with reporters after learning his fate. He issued a statement: "I want to thank the Phillies organization for the opportunity to manage. I wish them the best of luck in the coming years."

Bowa did not respond to a telephone message left last night. But earlier in the week, he talked about his job status.

"I'm a winner," he said. "I know I'm a winner. I couldn't care less about what anyone else thinks. I did a great job here."

The Phillies had planned to address Bowa's status after the season, but moved up the timetable after The Inquirer and other newspapers reported yesterday that he would be fired after the season. Bowa left a voice mail for Wade yesterday and asked for a meeting.

The manager wanted to know his fate.

Sooner than later.

"I thought the fairest thing to do was to go ahead and make a move at this point in time," Wade said.

Bowa, an extremely popular player and shortstop on the Phillies' 1980 championship team, succeeded Terry Francona as manager before the 2001 season. His career record with the Phillies was 337-308 (.522), but none of his teams made the postseason.

Bowa, 58, has a contract that runs through the 2005 season. People close to him have reported his salary to be about $1 million.

"I think it's very important to point out that when I hired Larry Bowa four years ago, he was the absolute right person for this job," said Wade, who noted that he made up his mind to fire Bowa over the last few days.

"I think that anybody who has been around Larry for these four years clearly understands the level of knowledge that he has for the game, his passion for the game, and his commitment to winning.

"It's a difficult decision for me to make, but I feel that for the good of the organization going forward that we just need a different voice at this point."

Wade said Bowa's firing "should not be construed as finger-pointing at one individual for where we are today."

"I'd be remiss if I didn't say that the disappointment of this season doesn't rest with one person," Wade said. "It rests with myself, Larry, the staff and the players. We all take a measure of responsibility for this."

Wade said he has some managerial candidates already in mind. A hire probably would not be made until after the World Series.

Despite Bowa's intensity and his incredible desire to win, his fiery demeanor didn't translate well with many players.

There had been private grumblings since his arrival in 2001, and it finally boiled over in July, when a few players stepped forward and publicly talked about a clubhouse atmosphere that made it a difficult place to play.

"Sometimes when things don't go your way, it's not the end of the world," reliever Rheal Cormier said in July. "And when we lose a few games, it's like we've lost 12 in a row. It shouldn't be that way. We play every day. You know what? Tomorrow we might win. It's pins and needles in here. It makes it very tough."

But the differences went beyond Bowa's shaking his head in the dugout.

It went beyond his muttering when a player threw a bad pitch or struck out.

Players, fairly or not, said there was never a level of trust between them and Bowa. They said he kept the clubhouse too tight.

Every loss felt like a funeral.

But after the Marlins swept the Phillies in Miami, Bowa held a team meeting. People in attendance said it wasn't productive.

"We lost a lot of respect for him that day," one player said.

"There were times over the last four years where there were players who haven't been able to adjust to his style," Wade said.

Bowa said he worked hard to improve his demeanor every year since he managed the San Diego Padres in 1987-88. He pointed out that he kept out of the clubhouse as much as possible, that he let the players police themselves.

He said he pulled for his players more than anybody.

He also believed that a few disgruntled players made the perception much worse than reality.

"When you have 25 guys, you have different personalities," Bowa said late last week. "And some guys you can see just by the way they react, they're very mentally tough. And there's other guys that you see that the mental toughness isn't there yet.

"I'm not saying it can't get there, but it isn't there yet. One thing you need in this city is mental toughness. You'd better be mentally tough every day and deal with it every day. And it'll show up. Mental toughness shows up."

Clearly, the Phillies hope a change of managers will give the team a fresh start.

"I would certainly hope that the atmosphere that we create going into spring training next year is one that allows us to get to our ultimate goal, which is to win a championship," Wade said.

"Our goal wasn't to finish second this year. Our goal wasn't to go through the things that we've gone through this year. We want to win a championship. Our responsibility is to create that environment."

Bowa won't remain with the Phillies organization. He said last week that he expected to be in a uniform somewhere next season.

The New York Mets, for example, had expressed interest in him as their bench coach before they fired manager Art Howe.

Bowa has maintained for months that injuries killed the Phillies' chances for the postseason.

They certainly played a role. The Phillies lost Kevin Millwood, Vicente Padilla, Randy Wolf, Billy Wagner, Ryan Madson, Pat Burrell and Placido Polanco to stints on the disabled list.

But the Phillies don't want to use that as an excuse.

"People in baseball know I'm a winner," Bowa said. "I know how things would have turned out if we had been healthy. Things would have been different. There's not even a doubt about that. These games would be meaningful right now."

Wade knows this might not be a popular decision. Many fans blame the front office for the team's failures.

"Sure, I thought about that the day I hired Larry, because unfortunately in this game, there usually is an end," Wade said.

It has ended for Bowa.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 09:58 AM

From Phillies.com..

PHILADELPHIA -- Now that two months of speculation have ended with the dismissal of manager Larry Bowa, the players to a man said they have themselves to blame.

"That's the drill," said Billy Wagner. "If we go out and do our job, Bo doesn't have to worry. But when we don't do our jobs and we struggle and have off years, a lot of times it comes down on Bo. It's unfortunate that this happened. He's a great man, but we are somewhat responsible for him being fired."

The players, always the last to know, were told of Bowa's dismissal about 45 minutes before Saturday's game.

"The timing was weird," said Pat Burrell. "It caught everybody off-guard. It was a tough situation. I was here when he got here [in 2001], and you don't want to see anybody lose their job. Most of the guys went into the office, wished him luck and thanked him for everything he's done."

Among Bowa's accomplishments was leading the Phillies to three winning seasons in his four years as manager, and they were 80-81 in the one losing campaign. In two of his seasons, the Phillies came very close to making the postseason.

This season's expectations were the highest yet, with the $93-million payroll. But inconsistent play and a bevy of injuries to the pitching staff held the team back. Bowa took the fall.

"It's unfortunate that it had to happen the way it did, but I think he's a good manager," said Jimmy Rollins. "We accept him for who he is."

Mike Lieberthal, the longest tenured Phillie, has played for Jim Fregosi, Terry Francona and Bowa, and each had his own distinctive style. The veteran catcher thought something might happen in late July. When nothing did, he started thinking Bowa might survive for good.

"You heard a lot of things in the paper, especially lately," he said. "We heard it all season. I think everyone expected Bowa to come back. We expected changes, but no one knew exactly what was going to happen. I think the guys were tired of the speculation."

Can change be good?

"It's hard to say," Lieberthal said. "The players are the ones responsible for winning and losing. We had a lot of injuries that hurt us, especially in the pitching category. We had high expectations in Spring Training and we knew that if we didn't make the playoffs, it was be a major disappointment, and it was. When that happens, there's almost always a change, sometimes all around."

As for David Bell, who knew Bowa as a coach when the two were in Seattle, the third baseman was focused more about the disappointing season, staying away from the topic of Bowa.

"The only thing I'd like to say is that this has been an extremely disappointing season for the players and everyone involved here," Bell said. "You never want to see this happen. It was a huge disappointment because of the team that we had. I don't think anyone is pointing the finger at anyone. I think we all feel responsible for not getting the job done. I can't speak for everyone, but I think you'll find that everyone accepts that responsibility."

- I dunno, is it me or do some of the players seem gleefully happy with some of these quotes, Lieby and Bell seemed sincere, Waggs is Waggs. Burrell seemed happy. Bowa, we love you man, you will be missed.

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 10:09 AM

Why wouldn't Burrell be happy? He's no longer Larry's whipping boy. Lieby should look at himself before he starts blaming things on injuries.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 10:12 AM

Why wouldn't Burrell be happy? He's no longer Larry's whipping boy. Lieby should look at himself before he starts blaming things on injuries.

Since, we all know it's a good move to fire Bowa, but I dunno I just think it's not his fault. Which is usually the case when it comes to managers being fired. We lost last night, bring Bowa back! LoL...

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 10:18 AM

Since, we all know it's a good move to fire Bowa, but I dunno I just think it's not his fault. Which is usually the case when it comes to managers being fired. We lost last night, bring Bowa back! LoL...
It's Bowa and Wade's fault. Bowa's for creating a very tense uptight doomsday atmosphere and Wade's for his customary moronic in season moves. One is gone the other should be on his way out too.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 10:23 AM

It's Bowa and Wade's fault. Bowa's for creating a very tense uptight doomsday atmosphere and Wade's for his customary moronic in season moves. One is gone the other should be on his way out too.

I'm not trying to defend Wade, b/c I still think he is a moron and shouldn't be our GM, but who think this team isn't good enough to make the playoffs.

That's the only thing I can think of that would be Bow's fault, the tense atmosphere but then again I usually don't bring it up b/c that's something we cannot see, that's something behind the clubhouse doors.

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 10:28 AM

I'm not trying to defend Wade, b/c I still think he is a moron and shouldn't be our GM, but who think this team isn't good enough to make the playoffs.

That's the only thing I can think of that would be Bow's fault, the tense atmosphere but then again I usually don't bring it up b/c that's something we cannot see, that's something behind the clubhouse doors.
Honestly this team probably would have made the playoffs or had a serious shot the last two weeks if Paul Abbott wasn't starting every fifth day for 2 months.

ryr8828

10-03-2004, 10:28 AM

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 10:31 AM

Honestly this team probably would have made the playoffs or had a serious shot the last two weeks if Paul Abbott wasn't starting every fifth day for 2 months.

I agree with you in some ways, but Abbot really wasn't that bad, it was the fact that our other starters were hurt or not performing. Brett Myers was horrrible this year. I cannot blame Wade for the trading deadline, like I said before, there just wasn't anything worth it out there, I'm actually glad he didn't do anything.

I'm not saying I love Wade and think he is great, I'm just saying I understand why he didn't do anything and it was actually a smart move.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 10:33 AM

I never liked Bowa as a manager. As a Cards fan I've got to see a lot of Scott Rolen over the past few years. I can't imagine a more professional ballplayer. If Bowa and Rolen couldn't get along, then I've got to put the blame on Bowa.We've been discussing him and Jimy Williams needing to be fired since God knows when on the Cards board.

You Philly regs got to see the whole incident so you may have a more informed opinion than me, I'd bet that you do.

Well, I think you'll see the distain not for Bowa, but more for the front office from most of us. The Rolen situation was blown our of proportion by the media as being a Bowa / Rolen thing. It was more a Management / Rolen thing and Bowa got caught in the middle speaking his mind a little more then neccessary.

I'd say that most Phils fans you'll meet who are knowledgable will tell you they still love Rolen and how hard he played for us, you're very lucky to have him.

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 10:38 AM

Well, I think you'll see the distain not for Bowa, but more for the front office from most of us. The Rolen situation was blown our of proportion by the media as being a Bowa / Rolen thing. It was more a Management / Rolen thing and Bowa got caught in the middle speaking his mind a little more then neccessary.

I'd say that most Phils fans you'll meet who are knowledgable will tell you they still love Rolen and how hard he played for us, you're very lucky to have him.
Why is there an award named after Dallas Green anyway?

BraynDrayn

10-03-2004, 10:41 AM

asheylarry

10-03-2004, 10:51 AM

Coaches are in a lose lose situation....kick the players ass' and your to demanding, don't kick their ass' and your not a good motivator

93 Million dollar payroll couldnt garner a playoff spot though and thats what cost him, if the Phills had made the playoff and went somewhere everyone who wanted a new coach this year would have been looking for an ass kicker
I disagree. There's a big difference between being an asskicker and treating a 2, 3 , 4 game losing streak like it's the end of the world. I also think payroll is overrated. Look at the Mets and Twins' payrolls and then look at where they are. The Marlins didn't have a big payroll last year and the Angels didn't have one the year before that. IMO, being a good manager is about getting the most out of what you have, not being an ass kicker or a players manager.

thomeismyhomie

10-03-2004, 11:04 AM

Just to backtrack a bit about Vuke. I doubt he is going to stick around next season. It was a few months ago but we were talking about this on the crap board. An article came out about Vuke and he admitted that sometimes, because of his surgery, he wasnt able to pick up the ball when it gets to the outfield. What is he doing in there then? I believe him cause I honestly joked about him not being able to see the ball, then I found out it wasnt really a joke. I dont understand our personnel decisions sometimes. But, on Bowa, I was shocked when I saw that last night. I honestly started to believe that he was going to be back and Wade was going to give him one more shot. I personally dont put the blame Bowa, but I am right there with Phila8821. It's not his fault, but he still has got to go. Thats the way it works.

ryr8828

10-03-2004, 11:06 AM

Not winning with a huge payroll isn't all Bowa's fault, no more than it was all Art howe's fault.
Although I think Bowa had more to work with, the Mets management is just insane.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 11:11 AM

Not winning with a huge payroll isn't all Bowa's fault, no more than it was all Art howe's fault.
Although I think Bowa had more to work with, the Mets management is just insane.

- Yeah, I just find it hard to complain about Wade too much with the what the Mets did this year...LoL..I might consider suicide if I was a Mets fan and my front office sold off the future for that crap.

thomeismyhomie

10-03-2004, 11:11 AM

Not winning with a huge payroll isn't all Bowa's fault, no more than it was all Art howe's fault.
Although I think Bowa had more to work with, the Mets management is just insane.
You'd have to have really really payed attention to the Phils games to realize where Bowa lacked management skills. I have said it plenty of times but I believe when you decide to play a one or two run game every damn night, those little in-game decisions can win or lose the game. Too many times Bowa made bad calls. And I'm not just talking about those 50-50 calls that didnt go his way. I'm talking about calls that as soon as it happens you go "WTF is he thinking!". Then it blows up in his face. It happened too many times.

PhilaVa

10-03-2004, 11:43 AM

You'd have to have really really payed attention to the Phils games to realize where Bowa lacked management skills. I have said it plenty of times but I believe when you decide to play a one or two run game every damn night, those little in-game decisions can win or lose the game. Too many times Bowa made bad calls. And I'm not just talking about those 50-50 calls that didnt go his way. I'm talking about calls that as soon as it happens you go "WTF is he thinking!". Then it blows up in his face. It happened too many times.

I disagree, Bowas on field decisions were not as bad as everyong (cough) TJD (cough) makes them out to be. I think the real problem was the feeling in the clubhouse, the numbers with RISP were horrible, and that's why he is being fired, not due to pitch counts and all that crap. Fact is, if this team was anywhere close to normal with RISP, we'd be in the playoffs as the wild card.

Lets not act like we didn't have plenty of opprotunities to score.

thomeismyhomie

10-03-2004, 11:55 AM

I disagree, Bowas on field decisions were not as bad as everyong (cough) TJD (cough) makes them out to be. I think the real problem was the feeling in the clubhouse, the numbers with RISP were horrible, and that's why he is being fired, not due to pitch counts and all that crap. Fact is, if this team was anywhere close to normal with RISP, we'd be in the playoffs as the wild card.

Lets not act like we didn't have plenty of opprotunities to score.
Noone said that. We were around the top of the league in OBP all season. You're nuts if you thought Bowa made good decisions though. Yeah, 90% of those games shoudlnt have come down to a critical pitching change, pinch runner, DEFENSIVE SUBSTITUTION, or whatnot. We should have wiped the floor in most of our games just from the sheer amount of runs we blew. Thats isnt Bowas fault, but his idiocy with babying our starters and killing our pen blew up in his face. Our starters pitched well the first part of the year but once the injuries started we went down hill. Well, the bullpen was already being used too much and now they had to pitch even more cause no starter could get out of the 5th inning. That has really bothered me the whole season. I distinctly remember every starter getting pulled when he neared 100 pitches even if they were pitching well. Bowa's excuse was to keep them rested. A quote he used was they were treating them with "kid gloves". Are you kidding me?