First Post

[PhilaVa]

Belongs to me, ME. Duke is the best college basketball team ever and they have the best coach ever, live with it folks.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

"Duke is the best college basketball team ever and they have the best coach ever, live with it folks."

It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.
It's only bravado, he's not serious. It's only bravado, he's not serious.


There. I'm OK.

;)

[Pitpen]

Duke might have their worst season it ten years. All of a sudden there McDonalds All-Americans suck or leave early for the NBA. Mikey does good for all the talent he has, but there are a lot of better coaches than him. Coaches that don't have NBA talent at every position and have to develop players.

[PhilaVa]

Duke might have their worst season it ten years. All of a sudden there McDonalds All-Americans suck or leave early for the NBA. Mikey does good for all the talent he has, but there are a lot of better coaches than him. Coaches that don't have NBA talent at every position and have to develop players.
NBA Talent, like what NBA talent? Name a Duke player not named Elton Brand who had a better NBA career than college. Guess he just is lucky that they all peaked early. I love it when people say I could coach Duke, well I'm sure you could but you couldn't recruit the same players or build the program to what it is, give credit where credit is due...in my eyes there is no better college basketball coach out there today.

[JRoll]

NBA Talent, like what NBA talent? Name a Duke player not named Elton Brand who had a better NBA career than college. Guess he just is lucky that they all peaked early. I love it when people say I could coach Duke, well I'm sure you could but you couldn't recruit the same players or build the program to what it is, give credit where credit is due...in my eyes there is no better college basketball coach out there today.
I agree that he's the best out there today. But he's not the best ever.

[Enyalois]

I agree that he's the best out there today. But he's not the best ever.
Yeah, you want to talk about recruiting, Rick Majerus would have to convince kids to play in Utah. Now that is a task, not to mention he never lost in the first round where there is more time to prepare for ones opponent.

[PhilaVa]

I agree that he's the best out there today. But he's not the best ever.
I won't argue with that either, but he can't fall far...certainly not past the top three...expecially with what he has done today, top two in my eyes.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Well, you could make a chicken and egg argument here. He gets more raw talent then anyone in the country, yet every year he's got a 7-man rotation and when it comes time to count NBA players, he's only got a few. Do you credit him for succeeding with guys who can't play in the NBA, or discredit him because he doesn't coach guys up to do well at the next level.

I've always thought that how you rate him depends on what you expect from a college coach. If you think his job is to make the best college basketball team possible, screw the future, then you probably are high on K. If you think a coach's job is to make players the best they can ultimately become (i.e. be able to play collegiately and professionally) then K probably gets bumped down a few notches.

I've always said this about him and I believe it fully. As a recruiter and a motivator, he's second to none. No team plays harder for its coach then Dook for K. But I've always said he's a mediocre gameday coach. Very few in-game adjustments, very little in the way of set plays and such. Obviously, he's good enough in the other two areas that he more then offsets the third, but I think there are many better in-game coaches then him.

Someone said this could be their worst season in 10 years....if you want to scale that down to 9, maybe. Remember, '95 was miserable <<<<fighting.......urge......to make......"exhaustion" wisecrack.............>>>>. But being the worst of the last 9 seasons in Durham ain't bad at all.

[PhilaVa]

Duke might have their worst season it ten years.
I also find it a little funny, although I agree there is something to it...that Duke worst season in ten years has started 8-0. We'll see how the year goes but that alone should be another reminder of how good K really is...

[Nittany Tar Heel]

I won't argue with that either, but he can't fall far...certainly not past the top three...expecially with what he has done today, top two in my eyes.
Well, top-2 is Wooden and Dean in most everyone's eyes....that's a tough one to crack right there.

[PhilaVa]

Well, you could make a chicken and egg argument here. He gets more raw talent then anyone in the country, yet every year he's got a 7-man rotation and when it comes time to count NBA players, he's only got a few. Do you credit him for succeeding with guys who can't play in the NBA, or discredit him because he doesn't coach guys up to do well at the next level.

I've always thought that how you rate him depends on what you expect from a college coach. If you think his job is to make the best college basketball team possible, screw the future, then you probably are high on K. If you think a coach's job is to make players the best they can ultimately become (i.e. be able to play collegiately and professionally) then K probably gets bumped down a few notches.
I dont' know what that is all about, you really think K's coaching style is costing his players at the next level. I'd love to hear the logic in that one, love too. I'm sure if you ask any coach in the ACC right now about what you just said they would all roll their eyes. I still have no idea what the hell you're talking about...

[Pitpen]

I also find it a little funny, although I agree there is something to it...that Duke worst season in ten years has started 8-0. We'll see how the year goes but that alone should be another reminder of how good K really is...
How many games were against top 50 opponents...2?

[PhilaVa]

Well, top-2 is Wooden and Dean in most everyone's eyes....that's a tough one to crack right there.
I don't see Dean above him at all, less national championships, less final fours, less acc championships, more wins...but isn't that really just a matter of time? So I don't see it...

[Enyalois]

I don't see how you can really knock Duke players at the next level. Some probably just looked better in college due to the rest of the supporting cast. Boozer has played well, Brand, Grant Hill before his ankle was on his way to a very stellar career, their rookies this year have looked good so far.

[PhilaVa]

How many games were against top 50 opponents...2?
Which is comparable to ever other top team in the nation...marylands last four and next game...

UNC Asheville
Florida State
American
Liberty
Mt. St. Mary's

[Pitpen]

Which is comparable to ever other top team in the nation...marylands last four and next game...

UNC Asheville
Florida State
American
Liberty
Mt. St. Mary's
I didn't say Maryland was playing anyone better, I was only saying that 8-0 has come against chumps (or at least 75% chumps). Also, way to criticize Maryland for playing a conference game.

Another thing, American was fifth in the nation in shooting and second in three point shooting when they played Maryland.

[asheylarry]

I would just like to say that this forum is a load of crap. Me and abreu have been asking for a Big East forum for a week and we get nothing. Duke blows goats. That is all.

[PhilaVa]

I didn't say Maryland was playing anyone better, I was only saying that 8-0 has come against chumps (or at least 75% chumps). Also, way to criticize Maryland for playing a conference game.

Another thing, American was fifth in the nation in shooting and second in three point shooting when they played Maryland.
you play to win the game

[Enyalois]

you play to win the game
Maybe you do, but I always play to pad my stats and make myself look much better by comparison to the rest of my team.

[JRoll]

you play to win the game
Thanks Herm! :)

[PhilaVa]

Maybe you do, but I always play to pad my stats and make myself look much better by comparison to the rest of my team.
In Madden, I call time out sometimes with :03 left to kick a field goal to make it 59-07, you know...to make sure Akers makes the pro bowl.

[Pitpen]

you play to win the game
What does that have to do with Maryland and Duke playing mostly stiffs?

[Enyalois]

In Madden, I call time out sometimes with :03 left to kick a field goal to make it 59-07, you know...to make sure Akers makes the pro bowl.
I haven't played Madden in a while, but after building up the position players Tds stats up, I would just stop short of the end zone and elect to go for a FG.

[PhilaVa]

What does that have to do with Maryland and Duke playing mostly stiffs?
Oh, hey...lets not limit it to just those two, North Carolina isn't really tearing it up with their opponents, I'm sure it's the same for the rest of the good teams out there, those three are the only three I have looked at so far...therefore just saying that I don't want to hear the schedule argument...and my other point, 8-0 is the start to the worst season in (mike is correct) 9 years, just more to think about how good K really is...

[Pitpen]

Oh, hey...lets not limit it to just those two, North Carolina isn't really tearing it up with their opponents, I'm sure it's the same for the rest of the good teams out there, those three are the only three I have looked at so far...therefore just saying that I don't want to hear the schedule argument...and my other point, 8-0 is the start to the worst season in (mike is correct) 9 years, just more to think about how good K really is...
at recruiting and working over referees.

[PhilaVa]

I haven't played Madden in a while, but after building up the position players Tds stats up, I would just stop short of the end zone and elect to go for a FG.
I never really thought about this but have you ever tried to get Akers into the end zone, I'd imagine it's pretty hard.

[PhilaVa]

at recruiting and working over referees.
What is the definition of a college basketball coach, alex?!?

[Enyalois]

I never really thought about this but have you ever tried to get Akers into the end zone, I'd imagine it's pretty hard.
I disagree and you'll see how hard it is come playoff time for this to occur.

[Pitpen]

What is the definition of a college basketball coach, alex?!?
I would have to imagine it includes more than recruiting and working over referees. Isn't the point of college to improve students and prepare them for the professional world? He doesn't seem to do too much of that.

[Enyalois]

I would have to imagine it includes more than recruiting and working over referees. Isn't the point of college to improve students and prepare them for the professional world? He doesn't seem to do too much of that.
I disagree, if they don't get a position in the working world upon graduation Coach K has a spot as an assistant on his bench for them.

[Pitpen]

I disagree, if they don't get a position in the working world upon graduation Coach K has a spot as an assistant on his bench for them.
All of them?

[Enyalois]

All of them?
Yes, as Duke is one of the finest institutes of higher learning in the counrty, there is a very limited number that this is a problem for.

[PhilaVa]

I disagree and you'll see how hard it is come playoff time for this to occur.
Of course I meant in Madden...probably more easy to get it done in real life...you put him at half back he is probably slow and fumbles on first wind of an opponent nearing...

[Enyalois]

Of course I meant in Madden...probably more easy to get it done in real life...you put him at half back he is probably slow and fumbles on first wind of an opponent nearing...
Hey, let's not try to make him out to be like Merrill Hoge. Though you are probably right, but he better have a hell of a high tackle rating.

[PhilaVa]

I would have to imagine it includes more than recruiting and working over referees. Isn't the point of college to improve students and prepare them for the professional world? He doesn't seem to do too much of that.
So now we're going to get all high and mighty, you'd lose this one...I know it for a fact, I've met the guy.

[JRoll]

So now we're going to get all high and mighty, you'd lose this one...I know it for a fact, I've met the guy.
Don't become another JWU :)

[PhilaVa]

Don't become another JWU :)
Hey, I'm not name dropper (saw Ben Wallace one night) but if I ever was that would be the first out of my mouth.

[Pitpen]

So now we're going to get all high and mighty, you'd lose this one...I know it for a fact, I've met the guy.
Lose what one?

[PhilaVa]

Lose what one?
Pathetic arguments for why K isn't a good coach or a good person...blah blah blah.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

I dont' know what that is all about, you really think K's coaching style is costing his players at the next level. I'd love to hear the logic in that one, love too. I'm sure if you ask any coach in the ACC right now about what you just said they would all roll their eyes. I still have no idea what the hell you're talking about...
Well...look at what his players have done in college and look what they've done in the pros. I don't know why you'd roll your eyes at that.

To be clear, I'm not saying that what K does is wrong. Hardly. I'm just saying it's one way to look at things. But yeah, teaching the system that they run isn't conducive to NBA success. I think that's been born out in the results. Balls to the wall intensity at every moment, complete reliance on perimeter play and 19 foot jump shots aren't the way it's done in the NBA, for good or bad.

Again, not that it's wrong...that's just the system. The successful system.

[Pitpen]

Pathetic arguments for why K isn't a good coach or a good person...blah blah blah.
Who said he wasn't a good person?

[PhilaVa]

Well...look at what his players have done in college and look what they've done in the pros. I don't know why you'd roll your eyes at that.

To be clear, I'm not saying that what K does is wrong. Hardly. I'm just saying it's one way to look at things. But yeah, teaching the system that they run isn't conducive to NBA success. I think that's been born out in the results. Balls to the wall intensity at every moment, complete reliance on perimeter play and 19 foot jump shots aren't the way it's done in the NBA, for good or bad.

Again, not that it's wrong...that's just the system. The successful system.
And....we're knocking him down two notches because...uh...yeah?

[Nittany Tar Heel]

I would have to imagine it includes more than recruiting and working over referees. Isn't the point of college to improve students and prepare them for the professional world? He doesn't seem to do too much of that.
Wow, even I can't get behind that.

He may or may not prepare his guys well for the NBA, but he certainly does a good job turning out quality kids. As any top flight school does *coughCarolinacough*

[asheylarry]

Big East basketball fellas. There's nothing better. Except for maybe Big 5 basketball.

[PhilaVa]

Wow, even I can't get behind that.

He may or may not prepare his guys well for the NBA, but he certainly does a good job turning out quality kids. As any top flight school does *coughCarolinacough*
Which is exactly my point, just a shame it took a Carolina fan to help me to it, damnit.

[Pitpen]

Wow, even I can't get behind that.

He may or may not prepare his guys well for the NBA, but he certainly does a good job turning out quality kids. As any top flight school does *coughCarolinacough*
You mean with the three year degrees they get when basically maintaining a full time job year round. I'd imagine it would be tough for these players to accomplish this...especially at Duke. Every Duke player must be smarter and more committed to a good education than every other non Duke basketball player in America.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

And....we're knocking him down two notches because...uh...yeah?
I'm not clear what you're getting at.

You asked why I don't think he prepares his players well for the NBA and I told you why I think that. Considering you admitted at the beginning that Elton Brand is really the only one who's done as well in the pros as college, I don't know why you're fighting me on that point. But now you're talking about knocking him down two notches. I don't know where that came from - I didn't say that.

[PhilaVa]

Big East basketball fellas. There's nothing better. Except for maybe Big 5 basketball.
Have you not visited the Ed Wade thread in a while...I need that man...it's what I live for...

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Big East basketball fellas. There's nothing better. Except for maybe Big 5 basketball.
Why don't you discuss that in the General Volleyball thread.

[PhilaVa]

I'm not clear what you're getting at.

You asked why I don't think he prepares his players well for the NBA and I told you why I think that. Considering you admitted at the beginning that Elton Brand is really the only one who's done as well in the pros as college, I don't know why you're fighting me on that point. But now you're talking about knocking him down two notches. I don't know where that came from - I didn't say that.
Oh...I think you did, and go back and find my Dean post, you'll enjoy that.

then K probably gets bumped down a few notches.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Oh...I think you did, and go back and find my Dean post, you'll enjoy that.
...I will now be searching for context.....

BRB

[asheylarry]

Have you not visited the Ed Wade thread in a while...I need that man...it's what I live for...
It would help if he went out and mad another terrible move already.

[asheylarry]

Why don't you discuss that in the General Volleyball thread.
Because noone views that forum.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Here's the entire quote:


"I've always thought that how you rate him depends on what you expect from a college coach. If you think his job is to make the best college basketball team possible, screw the future, then you probably are high on K. If you think a coach's job is to make players the best they can ultimately become (i.e. be able to play collegiately and professionally) then K probably gets bumped down a few notches.



As you can see, when taken out of context, that quote seems very harmful. It's not.

All I said was that if you think a college coach should be doing everything in his power to make sure the kids under his watch are successful for the rest of their playing days, not just college, then you have to knock K down a few notches because so few of his players amount to anything in the NBA. That's an "IF". He clearly focuses on making his kids the best COLLEGE players they can be. Not wrong, not right, just a matter of perspective. K probably would've gotten more out of Jordan at the collegiate level, but I don't think he's who he is today in the NBA if he goes to Dook. Conversely, a guy like JJ Redick probably becomes a better collegiate player at Dook then he would at Carolina.

Anyway, point being, your "two notches" quote was incorrectly taken out of context.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Because noone views that forum.
I'm not accepting lobs today.

[PhilaVa]

Here's the entire quote:


"I've always thought that how you rate him depends on what you expect from a college coach. If you think his job is to make the best college basketball team possible, screw the future, then you probably are high on K. If you think a coach's job is to make players the best they can ultimately become (i.e. be able to play collegiately and professionally) then K probably gets bumped down a few notches.



As you can see, when taken out of context, that quote seems very harmful. It's not.

All I said was that if you think a college coach should be doing everything in his power to make sure the kids under his watch are successful for the rest of their playing days, not just college, then you have to knock K down a few notches because so few of his players amount to anything in the NBA. That's an "IF". He clearly focuses on making his kids the best COLLEGE players they can be. Not wrong, not right, just a matter of perspective. K probably would've gotten more out of Jordan at the collegiate level, but I don't think he's who he is today in the NBA if he goes to Dook. Conversely, a guy like JJ Redick probably becomes a better collegiate player at Dook then he would at Carolina.

Anyway, point being, your "two notches" quote was incorrectly taken out of context.
Honestly I have no attention span so I'm not going to lie, I didn't read this whole post and this is not the post I was asking you to look up...

[Enyalois]

Again for the Pro player argument. What's wrong with Boozer, Duhon, Deng, Hill, Brand, and Magette? Some of the players get built up by the media so much because they're at Duke that people expect each one to be a superstar. Granted maybe people would expect Battier to be doing more, but other than that you can't really knock any of their players, unless you want to throw Laetner in there.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Honestly I have no attention span so I'm not going to lie, I didn't read this whole post and this is not the post I was asking you to look up...
Huh?

That's the one that had "two notches" in it...how could you not have been referring to this one?

Or am I just confused? It's entirely possible.

[Enyalois]

Huh?

That's the one that had "two notches" in it...how could you not have been referring to this one?

Or am I just confused? It's entirely possible.
I think he wanted you to look up one of his posts, why I do not know.

[PhilaVa]

Huh?

That's the one that had "two notches" in it...how could you not have been referring to this one?

Or am I just confused? It's entirely possible.
Go find the Dean as in Dean Smith response post..pack a lunch, go find it.

[Enyalois]

Go find the Dean as in Dean Smith response post..pack a lunch, go find it.
Wouldn't it just save some time if you just directed him to it yourself and tell him what the point of you wanting him to go there is?

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Again for the Pro player argument. What's wrong with Boozer, Duhon, Deng, Hill, Brand, and Magette? Some of the players get built up by the media so much because they're at Duke that people expect each one to be a superstar. Granted maybe people would expect Battier to be doing more, but other than that you can't really knock any of their players, unless you want to throw Laetner in there.
Boozer - good, not great

Hill - would have been great if not for injuries

Maggette - above average...though I'm not sure you want to claim him since

A) he almost had you guys on probation

B) he was only there 1 year

Duhon/Deng - far too early to say either way

Brand - good player, no doubt


But that's all to show for 20 years. That's not a lot when you think of all the collegiate greats that have come through there (Dawkins, Laettner, Hurley, Battier, Langdon, Ferry, etc.)

[Pitpen]

Wouldn't it just save some time if you just directed him to it yourself and tell him what the point of you wanting him to go there is?
He can guide him like Lemmewinks.

[PhilaVa]

Wouldn't it just save some time if you just directed him to it yourself and tell him what the point of you wanting him to go there is?
Fuck it, I'm going to bed...he is a carolina fan and I like him, I don't like him that much.

[Enyalois]

Boozer - good, not great

Hill - would have been great if not for injuries

Maggette - above average...though I'm not sure you want to claim him since

A) he almost had you guys on probation

B) he was only there 1 year

Duhon/Deng - far too early to say either way

Brand - good player, no doubt


But that's all to show for 20 years. That's not a lot when you think of all the collegiate greats that have come through there (Dawkins, Laettner, Hurley, Battier, Langdon, Ferry, etc.)I'm not a Duke fan or a fan of any ACC team for that matter, but I don't think that it's fair to say that he doesn't prepare the kids for the pros. For the most part you either have it or you don't and using that logic with the latter he does a lot as a coach then.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Go find the Dean as in Dean Smith response post..pack a lunch, go find it.
The one where I said the top-2 are Wooden and Dean?

I didn't say anything in there about where K sat.

[Enyalois]

He can guide him like Lemmewinks.
That would be quite entertaining. That episode was part of what got me into minstrel industry. Man the groupies are mad crazy let me tell you.

[PhilaVa]

The one where I said the top-2 are Wooden and Dean?

I didn't say anything in there about where K sat.
My response to it twat. Jesus, Carolina fans :rolleyes:

[Pitpen]

That would be quite entertaining. That episode was part of what got me into minstrel industry. Man the groupies are mad crazy let me tell you.
*Shudders*

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Fuck it, I'm going to bed...he is a carolina fan and I like him, I don't like him that much.
Wow - now you're messing with my mind.


I responded to the quote you posted from me, which was taken out of context. From there, I don't know. Can't defend myself if I don't know what stupid thing I said. I do distinctly remember not bashing K though. I remember, because it took so much restraint to avoid lobbing personal attacks at him. ; )

[Enyalois]

*Shudders*
Oh, there would be more of a shudder if I told you the other part.

[Pitpen]

Oh, there would be more of a shudder if I told you the other part.
*Runs and hides*

[Nittany Tar Heel]

My response to it twat. Jesus, Carolina fans :rolleyes:
Wait - so now I'm in trouble because of something you said?

You've lost me.

You got mad at the "two notches" quote, which I showed you was out of context. Now what did I do to screw up? Please tell me...this is going to bother me like forgetting the name of a song you can't get out of your head....

[PhilaVa]

Wait - so now I'm in trouble because of something you said?

You've lost me.

You got mad at the "two notches" quote, which I showed you was out of context. Now what did I do to screw up? Please tell me...this is going to bother me like forgetting the name of a song you can't get out of your head....
Someone help the kid, the helpless kid. I will not help you until you say Duke is the best college basketball team ever.

[Pitpen]

Someone help the kid, the helpless kid. I will not help you until you say Duke is the best college basketball team ever.
UCLA is the best college basketball school ever. Any number of UCLA's great teams were better than Duke's best.

[Enyalois]

The one where I said the top-2 are Wooden and Dean?

I didn't say anything in there about where K sat. Originally Posted by PhilaVa
I dont' know what that is all about, you really think K's coaching style is costing his players at the next level. I'd love to hear the logic in that one, love too. I'm sure if you ask any coach in the ACC right now about what you just said they would all roll their eyes. I still have no idea what the hell you're talking about... Originally Posted by PhilaVa
I don't see Dean above him at all, less national championships, less final fours, less acc championships, more wins...but isn't that really just a matter of time? So I don't see it... I'm assuming he's talking about one of these two posts, why I do not know?

[Nittany Tar Heel]

I don't see Dean above him at all, less national championships, less final fours, less acc championships, more wins...but isn't that really just a matter of time? So I don't see it...
This is all I could find and it obviously has nothing to do with what you said. Do I have to call you a twat now? And isn't it "toit"? Maybe it's a regional thing.

I could come back with the fact that no coach has changed the way the game is played as much as Dean, but it's really just a matter of preference. I would have a couple other arguments that I assure you that you'd have absolutely no interest in hearing whatsoever, so I won't make them.

I'd still love to know what the point you were making was though. I really think you just quoted something out of context that you overreacted to a little bit, but I could be totally wrong.

But you have succeeded in tying my brain in knots.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Someone help the kid, the helpless kid. I will not help you until you say Duke is the best college basketball team ever.
If you'd simply tell me, we could have this solved.

If TDAkers is right, I've answered you. Did you just take that quote out of context? I assure you I never ripped on your boy in this thread.

[Nittany Tar Heel]

Oh well - I think I got my answer.

All of you that were here make sure to go to the main ACC thread and add your prediction to the stickied thread so we can compare them as the season goes along. With the balance in the league, there should be a lot of permutations.

[JRoll]

Oh well - I think I got my answer.

All of you that were here make sure to go to the main ACC thread and add your prediction to the stickied thread so we can compare them as the season goes along. With the balance in the league, there should be a lot of permutations.
Also...make sure to post on the ACC General Board so I have something to do :)